{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4120", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4120, "subject": "crowley", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-07-28T05:20:33+00:00", "last": "2003-08-05T09:56:57+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2003-07-28T05:20:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) crowley", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blattid implies that \"Little, Big\" never captured his imagination. I have to \nsay I agree. If you look at the cards and the characters and follow the path \nof the stork, then there are some interesting things going on in the book, but \nit isn't my favorite Crowley. I like the Aegypt series much more, but in my \nmind \"Little, Big\" doesn't have the intense weirdness that makes Book of the \nNew Sun so much more fun to read over and over again (but then again, neither \ndoes The Book of the Long Sun, and that's a fine series as well).\n\nHowever, I did think that portions of the book were amazingly effective, \nespecially toward the end when Smoky (that was his name, right?) is left all \nalone to die a mortal death and his faerie family has moved on. I haven't \nread the book in some years, so I can't help you too much, Blattid. But I \nmust say for the most part I agree ... Crowley can't touch Wolfe in my mind, \nbut it is well worth your time reading Engine Summer and The Deep and even his \ncollection of tales that includes Great Work of Time and that one about the \nbirds of the forest (Was it called Novelty?) Maybe Alga could help you more.\n\nDon't feel bad, Blattid. As far as my literary taste goes, after Wolfe, I \nlove Zelazny, Mishima, Faulkner, Dostoevsky, Jonathan Carrol, Borges, and \nNabokov and \"merely\" like Delany, Simmons, Crowley, and M John Harrison (which \nmeans I've still read almost everything by them). Tolstoy bored me out of my \nmind, so maybe I'm a plebe. And I always thought the original Dragonlance \nChronicles were just as good as Lord of the Rings. As long as you like Wolfe, \nyou are plenty sophisticated and discerning in my mind.:)\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joshua A. Solomon", "address": "j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk" }, "date": "2003-07-31T14:32:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recently talked with other Wolfe-fans who didn't enjoy Little, Big\n(including Nigel, who is swamped with work at the moment; he'll be back\nsoon). I did. Thanks to Alga and Mantis etc. for turning me on. I started\nwith The Deep, read Beasts, Engine Summer, Little Big, Novelty, Ægypt, Love\n& Sleep and I'm now halfway through Dæmonomania. At one point, I noted that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Little, Big can be especially bewildering if\nyou are not familiar with the symbolic devices\nhe develops in his earlier novels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Decoding (or at least, attempting to decode) this symbolic language is half\nthe fun for me.\n\nGoing back through our correspondence, the only other (possibly) relevant\nthing I said was" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Although Crowley is certainly intrigued,\nif not obsessed, with occult matters" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(you urthlings have convinced me that Gnostic\nthemes in particular are explored in his novels)," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find it hard to pinpoint\nwhere his actual sympathies lie. Smoky, like\nthe protagonist of the Ægypt series, frequently\nencounters strange goings-on--even falls in love\nwith a semi-fantastic creature or two--but never\nreally buys into the whole supernatural mindset.\nI suspect that one of the reasons Crowley mines\nthe occult so heavily is because it is such a\nconvenient metaphor for fiction in general. If\nthere is a single dominant theme in Crowley's\nwork it is the creation and perpetuation of\nstories. Crowley may believe in certain things\nthat others consider fiction; he may not. I dunno." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "bee" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2003-08-01T07:07:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Crowley", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "bee," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Little, Big can be especially bewildering if\nyou are not familiar with the symbolic devices\nhe develops in his earlier novels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm. By this time I suppose I'm pretty conversant with Crowley but I don't\nknow what you mean by this. LB does not seem to me to pick up on themes from\nhis three earlier books, other than details like cards and games. Not do\nthey seem to have a lot in common. What am I missing here?\n\nGoing back through our correspondence, the only other (possibly) relevant\nthing I said was" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Although Crowley is certainly intrigued,\nif not obsessed, with occult matters" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(you urthlings have convinced me that Gnostic\nthemes in particular are explored in his novels)," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find it hard to pinpoint\nwhere his actual sympathies lie. Smoky, like\nthe protagonist of the Ægypt series, frequently\nencounters strange goings-on--even falls in love\nwith a semi-fantastic creature or two--but never\nreally buys into the whole supernatural mindset.\nI suspect that one of the reasons Crowley mines\nthe occult so heavily is because it is such a\nconvenient metaphor for fiction in general. If\nthere is a single dominant theme in Crowley's\nwork it is the creation and perpetuation of\nstories. Crowley may believe in certain things\nthat others consider fiction; he may not. I dunno." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crowley emphatically does not. So he says with considerable vigor in the\ninterview printed both in mantis's chapbook and in the\nbooklength -Snake's-hands- and also, slightly differently, in Locus of 2001\nor so. But you are correct that he finds it a useful and even beautiful\nmetaphor.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joshua A. Solomon", "address": "j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk" }, "date": "2003-08-04T10:58:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Crowley", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Alice K. Turner\" \nDate: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 03:07:35 -0400\nSubject: Re: (urth) Crowley" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Little, Big can be especially bewildering if\nyou are not familiar with the symbolic devices\nhe develops in his earlier novels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm. By this time I suppose I'm pretty conversant with Crowley but I don't\nknow what you mean by this. LB does not seem to me to pick up on themes from\nhis three earlier books, other than details like cards and games. Not do\nthey seem to have a lot in common. What am I missing here?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't actually have any of the books here with me,\nbut off the top of my head...\nThe colours, particularly Red and Black, but also Gray/White and Gold.\nFire and Smoke (particularly cigarette smoke).\nAnd Water. I know he elucidates the elements in Little, Big, but they're\nthere in The Deep & Engine Summer too. Not certain about Beasts.\nBridges, Rings, waterstairs. The list goes on and on. If I can remember,\nI'll bring my copy of Little, Big (over a bridge to the island/hub) to my\ncomputer tomorrow, and see what they can produce. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Although Crowley is certainly intrigued,\nif not obsessed, with occult matters\n(you urthlings have convinced me that Gnostic\nthemes in particular are explored in his novels),\nI find it hard to pinpoint\nwhere his actual sympathies lie. Smoky, like\nthe protagonist of the Ægypt series, frequently\nencounters strange goings-on--even falls in love\nwith a semi-fantastic creature or two--but never\nreally buys into the whole supernatural mindset.\nI suspect that one of the reasons Crowley mines\nthe occult so heavily is because it is such a\nconvenient metaphor for fiction in general. If\nthere is a single dominant theme in Crowley's\nwork it is the creation and perpetuation of\nstories. Crowley may believe in certain things\nthat others consider fiction; he may not. I dunno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crowley emphatically does not. So he says with considerable vigor in the\ninterview printed both in mantis's chapbook and in the\nbooklength -Snake's-hands- and also, slightly differently, in Locus of 2001\nor so. But you are correct that he finds it a useful and even beautiful\nmetaphor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, well I thought I would actually read the books before I got to the\ncriticism. Which, I must say, I am looking forward to almost as much as The\nTranslator (having awaken at 5.30 so as to finish Dæmonomania before work)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joshua A. Solomon", "address": "j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk" }, "date": "2003-08-05T09:56:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Crowley", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Let's see. Here's one (p. 35 of the Fantasy Masterworks edition of\nLittle, Big). \"If all the plates were on glass, he could hold them all up at\nonce...\") This is exactly what Painted Red does in Engine Summer (ES). It's\na device (I call it superposition) Crowley uses repeatedly in all his books,\nstarting with ES. Note that it's impossble to 'get the big picture' in this\nway. Interpretations of the picture always seem to come from within the\ncharacter's own head.\n\nJust reviewing what I've already written, note that Painting, the colour red\n(not to mention its homophone Read, its homograph Read and its homophone\nReed), Engines (NB: red indian) and the seasons all have special meanings in\nCrowley's books. There was one passage, somewhere in Little, Big (LB), where\nhe 'explains' that (IIRC), although Novembry in Edgewood, it was November in\nthe Tale. The difference between those who know which month it is and those\nwho don't was first explored in ES. In LB the seasonal differences are\nsometimes expressed with a suit, eg. a DIAMOND in bevelled glass or the\nnoisy bridge rod and gun CLUB. Don't get me started on bridges and guns. See\nfor yourself in The Deep.\n\nOh hell, I really could spend all day on this, but I need to do some\nscience. Check out\n\nLetters/Envelopes\nVoices\nPointy things like thorns\nPipes\nEggs/Balls\netc., etc. All of these things crop up in his first 3 novels.\n\nOne of my favourite passages in LB is on p. 417:\n\"That ain't the worst of it,\" George said.... He put the coffee before\nAuberon. \"Milk? Sugar?\"\n \"Black.\"\n(Discussion of fireworks, the colour of love and nightingales ensues.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/8/03 4:59 am, \"urth at urth.net\" wrote:\nFrom: \"Joshua A. Solomon\" \nDate: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:58:22 +0100" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Alice K. Turner\" \nDate: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 03:07:35 -0400" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Little, Big can be especially bewildering if\nyou are not familiar with the symbolic devices\nhe develops in his earlier novels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hmm. By this time I suppose I'm pretty conversant with Crowley but I don't\nknow what you mean by this. LB does not seem to me to pick up on themes from\nhis three earlier books, other than details like cards and games. Not do\nthey seem to have a lot in common. What am I missing here?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll bring my copy of Little, Big (over a bridge to the island/hub) to my\ncomputer tomorrow, and see what they can produce. :-)" } ] } ] }