Subject: (urth) crowley

From: maa32 <maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 05:20:33 +0000

Blattid implies that "Little, Big" never captured his imagination.  I have to 
say I agree.  If you look at the cards and the characters and follow the path 
of the stork, then there are some interesting things going on in the book, but 
it isn't my favorite Crowley.  I like the Aegypt series much more, but in my 
mind "Little, Big" doesn't have the intense weirdness that makes Book of the 
New Sun so much more fun to read over and over again (but then again, neither 
does The Book of the Long Sun, and that's a fine series as well).

However, I did think that portions of the book were amazingly effective, 
especially toward the end when Smoky (that was his name, right?) is left all 
alone to die a mortal death and his faerie family has moved on.  I haven't 
read the book in some years, so I can't help you too much, Blattid.  But I 
must say for the most part I agree ... Crowley can't touch Wolfe in my mind, 
but it is well worth your time reading Engine Summer and The Deep and even his 
collection of tales that includes Great Work of Time and that one about the 
birds of the forest (Was it called Novelty?)  Maybe Alga could help you more.

Don't feel bad, Blattid.  As far as my literary taste goes, after Wolfe, I 
love Zelazny, Mishima, Faulkner, Dostoevsky, Jonathan Carrol, Borges, and 
Nabokov and "merely" like Delany, Simmons, Crowley, and M John Harrison (which 
means I've still read almost everything by them).  Tolstoy bored me out of my 
mind, so maybe I'm a plebe.  And I always thought the original Dragonlance 
Chronicles were just as good as Lord of the Rings.  As long as you like Wolfe, 
you are plenty sophisticated and discerning in my mind.:)

Marc Aramini

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From: Joshua A. Solomon <j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:32:43 +0000

I recently talked with other Wolfe-fans who didn't enjoy Little, Big
(including Nigel, who is swamped with work at the moment; he'll be back
soon). I did. Thanks to Alga and Mantis etc. for turning me on. I started
with The Deep, read Beasts, Engine Summer, Little Big, Novelty, Ægypt, Love
& Sleep and I'm now halfway through Dæmonomania. At one point, I noted that

>>Little, Big can be especially bewildering if
>>you are not familiar with the symbolic devices
>>he develops in his earlier novels.

Decoding (or at least, attempting to decode) this symbolic language is half
the fun for me.

Going back through our correspondence, the only other (possibly) relevant
thing I said was

>>Although Crowley is certainly intrigued,
>>if not obsessed, with occult matters
(you urthlings have convinced me that Gnostic
themes in particular are explored in his novels),
>>I find it hard to pinpoint
>>where his actual sympathies lie. Smoky, like
>>the protagonist of the Ægypt series, frequently
>>encounters strange goings-on--even falls in love
>>with a semi-fantastic creature or two--but never
>>really buys into the whole supernatural mindset.
>>I suspect that one of the reasons Crowley mines
>>the occult so heavily is because it is such a
>>convenient metaphor for fiction in general. If
>>there is a single dominant theme in Crowley's
>>work it is the creation and perpetuation of
>>stories. Crowley may believe in certain things
>>that others consider fiction; he may not. I dunno.

bee

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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 07:07:35 +0000

bee,

>>he develops in his earlier novels.

Hmm. By this time I suppose I'm pretty conversant with Crowley but I don't
know what you mean by this. LB does not seem to me to pick up on themes from
his three earlier books, other than details like cards and games. Not do
they seem to have a lot in common. What am I missing here?

>>that others consider fiction; he may not. I dunno.

Crowley emphatically does not. So he says with considerable vigor in the
interview printed both in mantis's chapbook and in the
booklength -Snake's-hands- and also, slightly differently, in Locus of 2001
or so. But you are correct that he finds it a useful and even beautiful
metaphor.

-alga

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From: Joshua A. Solomon <j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:58:22 +0000

> From: "Alice K. Turner" <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 03:07:35 -0400
> Subject: Re: (urth) Crowley
> 

I don't actually have any of the books here with me,
but off the top of my head...
The colours, particularly Red and Black, but also Gray/White and Gold.
Fire and Smoke (particularly cigarette smoke).
And Water. I know he elucidates the elements in Little, Big, but they're
there in The Deep & Engine Summer too. Not certain about Beasts.
Bridges, Rings, waterstairs. The list goes on and on. If I can remember,
I'll bring my copy of Little, Big (over a bridge to the island/hub) to my
computer tomorrow, and see what they can produce. :-)

> or so. But you are correct that he finds it a useful and even beautiful

Yeah, well I thought I would actually read the books before I got to the
criticism. Which, I must say, I am looking forward to almost as much as The
Translator (having awaken at 5.30 so as to finish Dæmonomania before work).

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From: Joshua A. Solomon <j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 09:56:57 +0000

Right. Let's see. Here's one (p. 35 of the Fantasy Masterworks edition of
Little, Big). "If all the plates were on glass, he could hold them all up at
once...") This is exactly what Painted Red does in Engine Summer (ES). It's
a device (I call it superposition) Crowley uses repeatedly in all his books,
starting with ES. Note that it's impossble to 'get the big picture' in this
way. Interpretations of the picture always seem to come from within the
character's own head.

Just reviewing what I've already written, note that Painting, the colour red
(not to mention its homophone Read, its homograph Read and its homophone
Reed), Engines (NB: red indian) and the seasons all have special meanings in
Crowley's books. There was one passage, somewhere in Little, Big (LB), where
he 'explains' that (IIRC), although Novembry in Edgewood, it was November in
the Tale. The difference between those who know which month it is and those
who don't was first explored in ES. In LB the seasonal differences are
sometimes expressed with a suit, eg. a DIAMOND in bevelled glass or the
noisy bridge rod and gun CLUB. Don't get me started on bridges and guns. See
for yourself in The Deep.

Oh hell, I really could spend all day on this, but I need to do some
science. Check out

Letters/Envelopes
Voices
Pointy things like thorns
Pipes
Eggs/Balls
etc., etc. All of these things crop up in his first 3 novels.

One of my favourite passages in LB is on p. 417:
"That ain't the worst of it," George said.... He put the coffee before
Auberon. "Milk? Sugar?"
    "Black."
(Discussion of fireworks, the colour of love and nightingales ensues.)

On 5/8/03 4:59 am, "urth at urth.net" <urth at urth.net> wrote:

> From: "Joshua A. Solomon" <J.A.Solomon at city.ac.uk>
> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:58:22 +0100
> 

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