{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4130", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4130, "subject": "Tut, tut, and a little history", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "2003-07-29T05:26:40+00:00", "last": "2003-07-31T02:42:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2003-07-29T05:26:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tut, tut, and a little history", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me that there is enirely too much ad hominen squabbling going on\nhere--if this list degenerates into Usenet, I, for one, will depart. Take it\nto e-mail if you want to insult one another, especially wrt race or\nreligion.\n\nOr sexual preference. Which reminds me...\n\nLet me give you a little bit of sf history. Back in the 70s, an experimental\ntime in all sorts of ways, there was a small group of ambitious young sf\npeople living in New York. They had been influenced by the New Wave, of\ncourse, and wanted to bust out of genre. Two of them, Samuel Delaney and Tom\nDisch, were out-of-the-closet homosexuals, as was Baird Searles, a prominent\nreviewer and bookseller. Crowley, a little younger than the others, was a\ngood friend of Disch's. Spinrad and even Ben Bova{!!) were also around, but\nlet's leave them out of it, except to note that Spinrad was also pushing the\nenvelope wrt to explicit sexual writing. But I get ahead of myself.\n\nNow about Delaney specifically. First, he is a very nice (by which I mean\naffable, amusing and generous), very intelligent man and a beloved teacher.\nSecond, even with the support of his friends and the temper of the times, it\ntook a lot of nerve for him to \"come out\" in print in a notably conservative\nfield (think of poor old Sir Arthur who had to hide out in Sri Lanka in\norder to live what for him was a \"normal\" life). Did Delaney go too far?\nYes, probably, but he was a pioneer, and they often do. But I can tell you,\nwith certainty, that the publication of \"Dhalgren\" and of \"Little, Big\" at\njust about the same time, two big genre-busting books, was quite an event in\nthe sf world. Interestingly, in both cases the publishers were afraid of the\nbooks and put them out as paperback originals, thus virtually guaranteeing\nthat they would get no review attention except in genre--had they come out\nin hardcover things might have been quite different, by which I mean that\nthe lines between genres might have blurred somewhat, as they do in Britain.\nMy point is that this group wanted to write books for grown-ups, relevant to\nthe times, and they also wanted the kind of liberation that the fantastic or\n\"magic realism\"--a term just then coming into use--can give. (Joyce Carol\nOates published \"Belle-Fleur\" at the same time, which is the closest book to\n\"Little, Big\" that you will ever encounter--the two books make up the entire\nschool of Hudson River Gothic. Mark Halprin published \"The Winter's Tale,\"\nsame sort of book, widely reviewed, but I never could finish reading it.\n\"One Hundred Years of Solitude\" was being translated into English.)\n\nSo what happened next? Judy-Lynn del Rey happened, that's what, a brilliant\npublisher with a crass, commercial mind (and a conservative old fart of a\nhusband). They launched Terry Brooks upon the world, set firm guidelines as\nto what would or would not fly in sf (which did not include any of the above\nexcept for Bova) and more or less defined sf/fantasy As We Know It, which is\nto say, mostly crap. (Sorry if that's offensive to some who love it\nindiscrimately, but at least it's not about race, religion or sex.)\n\nHow do I know all this? Well, at the time I was the paperback editor (i.e.\nreporter and reviewer) of Publisher's Weekly, the beating heart of the\npublishing universe, and I knew a lot of things. Sorry for the pedantry.\nAlso sorry if my pub-dates are a little muddled--I don't have time to check\nthem. But the above is *generally* true.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-07-29T13:22:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Tut, tut, and a little history", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "alga wrote amidst lots of interesting stuff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mark Halprin published \"The Winter's Tale,\"\nsame sort of book, widely reviewed, but I never could finish reading it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought of this book while I was reading the LB discussion here -\nspecifically the New York stuff. I liked it when I was a youngster, but I\ncouldn't finish it when I tried it again a couple of years ago - kind of\nflatulent and self-indulgent, though some of the set-pieces were nice.\nDhalgren was certainly a better book, IMO.\n\nHelprin is/was a New Yorker regular, I think? I guess that would help for\ngetting mainstream cred, as against being locked up in a genre box." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-07-29T14:06:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Tut, tut, and a little history", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 2003-07-28 at 22:26, Alice K. Turner wrote:\nIt seems to me that there is enirely too much ad hominen squabbling going on\nhere--if this list degenerates into Usenet, I, for one, will depart. Take it\nto e-mail if you want to insult one another, especially wrt race or\nreligion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Well. I find it interesting that the only person here who *really* \nhas understood what I meant by my original, regrettable and regretted\nremark has been Dan'l Danehy-Oakes himself, the target of my misdirected\nbarb, whose wife hales from this very district and in fact shares my\nattitude towards people who disrespect mi barrio, esse? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or sexual preference. Which reminds me..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let me give you a little bit of sf history. Back in the 70s, an experimental\ntime in all sorts of ways, there was a small group of ambitious young sf\npeople living in New York. They had been influenced by the New Wave, of\ncourse, and wanted to bust out of genre. Two of them, Samuel Delaney and Tom\nDisch, were out-of-the-closet homosexuals, as was Baird Searles, a prominent\nreviewer and bookseller. Crowley, a little younger than the others, was a\ngood friend of Disch's. Spinrad and even Ben Bova{!!) were also around, but\nlet's leave them out of it, except to note that Spinrad was also pushing the\nenvelope wrt to explicit sexual writing. But I get ahead of myself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes! Thank you!\n\nI remember the time also. It was an exciting time. Thank you for writing\nall of this historical stuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now about Delaney specifically. First, he is a very nice (by which I mean\naffable, amusing and generous), very intelligent man and a beloved teacher." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that is what I have been forgetting to mention. Chip Delany is one\nof the sweetest people you could ever want to meet. I've met him, I\nthink, three times, and I can't imagine anyone meeting him and not\nliking him. One of the only other people I have met who acts as nice \nas he does as consistently is Gene Wolfe. If the two of them have ever\nmet, it would surprise me if they did not get along well with each\nother, at least on a personal level. I'd like to thank the person who\ncriticized my lame perception that GW might think SRD was a better\nwriter than he: as soon as I read the criticism I realized how\nbogus that idea is. Considering the sociocultural gap between the\ntwo men, that person's remarks about Wolfe not getting Delany's \nwritings strike me as far more likely.\n\nJ.\n\n___" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-07-29T13:56:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Tut, tut, and a little history", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew gives an honest personal opinion (which is what I've noticed people\nusually do around here, but suddenly some people have gotten very sensitive\nand simultaneously thick):\nI thought of [Winters Tale] while I was reading the LB discussion here -\nspecifically the New York stuff. I liked it when I was a youngster, but I\ncouldn't finish it when I tried it again a couple of years ago - kind of\nflatulent and self-indulgent, though some of the set-pieces were nice.\n\nCrush responds:\nFlatulent? No, definitely not. Self-indulgent? Only to the extent that he\nattempted to completely indulged his imagination, which Wolfe is also guilty\nof. The difference is that Wolfe does not back away from where his\nimagination leads him, while Helprin seems to have consciously done so.\n\nAs for the Delany/Baldanders connection, I'm still not sure what it is. Is\nit the castle? Well, I think that's just a rationalization of the fairy-tale\nGiant in a Castle motif. Wolfe has introduced a Giant in a SF story. Very\ncleverly. Just as he introduced Vampires, Ghosts, Frankensteins, and\nWerewolves into the Long Sun. I've only seen pictures of Delany, he didnt'\nlook like a big man to me. But I'm no Delany-expert and Blattid (the reputed\nexpert) has yet to pipe in.\n\n--- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-07-30T03:38:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Tut, tut, and a little history", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 2003-07-28 at 22:26, Alice K. Turner wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems to me that there is enirely too much ad hominen squabbling \ngoing on\nhere--if this list degenerates into Usenet, I, for one, will depart. \nTake it\nto e-mail if you want to insult one another, especially wrt race or\nreligion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don wholeheartedly agrees with this, however . . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 07:06 AM, Josh Geller wrote:\nYes. Well. I find it interesting that the only person here who *really*\nhas understood what I meant by my original, regrettable and regretted\nremark has been Dan'l Danehy-Oakes himself, the target of my \nmisdirected\nbarb, whose wife hales from this very district and in fact shares my\nattitude towards people who disrespect mi barrio, esse?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I too understand. This place (bay area) is a little like the Balkans \nsometimes or maybe more like \"Gangs of New York\" with BMW's. The sharp \neconomic divide, combined with the overpopulation, xenophobia, and \ncovert racism that festers below the surface here can really do a \nnumber on your attitude. Plus it's been hot as hell here lately. \nStill courtesy and care (especially with emails) are best. I'm not \nsure why I wrote this except to say that while I disagree with what \nhappened, I know it didn't come from some emotionally unstable \nneverland.\n\nRegards to all\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-07-30T09:31:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Tut, tut, and a little history", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I too understand. This place (bay area) is a little like the Balkans\nsometimes or maybe more like \"Gangs of New York\" with BMW's. The sharp\neconomic divide, combined with the overpopulation, xenophobia, and\ncovert racism that festers below the surface here can really do a\nnumber on your attitude. Plus it's been hot as hell here lately.\nStill courtesy and care (especially with emails) are best. I'm not\nsure why I wrote this except to say that while I disagree with what\nhappened, I know it didn't come from some emotionally unstable\nneverland." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But we can put that sort of thing aside on this list, act like grown-ups,\nnot rise to bait (real or perceived), set aside extreme profanity, etc. Or\nif not, take it off-list. If that means we're not discussing important\nthings, then so be it.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-07-31T02:42:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Tut, tut, and a little history", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 02:31 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nDon said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I too understand. This place (bay area) is a little like the Balkans\nsometimes or maybe more like \"Gangs of New York\" with BMW's. The \nsharp\neconomic divide, combined with the overpopulation, xenophobia, and\ncovert racism that festers below the surface here can really do a\nnumber on your attitude. Plus it's been hot as hell here lately.\nStill courtesy and care (especially with emails) are best. I'm not\nsure why I wrote this except to say that while I disagree with what\nhappened, I know it didn't come from some emotionally unstable\nneverland." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But we can put that sort of thing aside on this list, act like \ngrown-ups,\nnot rise to bait (real or perceived), set aside extreme profanity, \netc. Or\nif not, take it off-list. If that means we're not discussing important\nthings, then so be it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree completely." } ] } ] }