{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4155", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4155, "subject": "One Ship", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-08-13T04:07:07+00:00", "last": "2003-08-14T03:51:01+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ashley Crill", "address": "ashley.crill at student.oc.edu" }, "date": "2003-08-13T04:07:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) One Ship", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": 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} ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-08-13T15:04:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) One Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ash quoted:\n\"There is only one ship, the captain says. All the ships we hail between the\ngalaxies or the suns are this ship.\"\n\nCrush responds:\nNice attempt. The bit about \"only one ship\" is a good arguement, but IMO\nthere is at least an equally compelling arguement against it: The Whorl is\nbreaking down.\n\nSilk mentions the breaking shiprock that was supposed to last until the end\nof the Whorl. Well the Whorl was in orbit around Blue and Green for some 30\nyears before the colonists started to leave, and since the shiprock is\ndeteriorating, and since the Whorl stayed in orbit for another 30? years\nafter the colonists began to depart, it suggests that the Whorl was intended\nfor a one way trip.\n\nAlso, the Whorl was built by Typhon. Could Severian's ship have been?\n\nYour theory does, however, make me wonder about what the Whorl technicians\nthought what was to ultimately to become of them.\n\n\nAsh says:\n...it contains Chems very similar in construction and role to those found in\nthe Whorl. Jonas himself seems to be a chem, and is a sailor as well. Jonas\ndoes not seem to be his original name, but the name of the sailor whos body\nhe made use of, much as he took on the name Miles at a later point.\n\nCrush responds:\nWell, Jonas is a different kind of chem than Marble. All the chems are very\nheavy (Sand is \"five-hundred weight\" and Marble is too heavy for Silk to\nlift) but when Severian picked up Jonas he was surprised to discover how\nlight he was. While the story reiterates two or three times how light\nHyacinth is and I think there's something to *that*, it is clear that Jonas\nis a different kind of chem from the standard chems of the Whorl. Mind, I\nbelieve Jonas' light weight does work into the Long Sun plot.\n\nNevertheless, IIRC it was Miles who was the human body that Jonas took on -- \na whole-body-prosthesis for a robot, just as the Ayuntamiento took chems as\nwhole-body prosthesises. Jonas was all artificial, and Jonas is not a\nmineral (I don't think).\n\n\nAsh argues:\n...the name 'Sideros' means 'iron', which fulfills the need for a mineral\nname. Ossipago himself is a machine...Sideros notes that beings like himself\nwere originally created as protective suits against the vacuum of space, but\nlater took on specific roles within the ship...Severian sees 'several beings\nof polished metal', and Sideros is one of those. If Chems were created on\nboard the ship as Sideros claims, then for them to be present on the\nStarcrosser the two ships would have to be one and the same.\n\nCrush responds:\nOnce again, while Sideros uses the same naming convention as the Whorl, his\norigin is more like that of a talos than a chem. And I don't think there is\nany mention of names.\n\nKypis notes that she was familiar with \"robots\" on Urth; further evidence\nthat the origin of the chems is Urth-born not shipborn.\n\nFinally, Ossipago and her comrades are not named after minerals, but after\ngods.\n\n\nThe only way I can think to salvage this theory is to say that Severian's\nship was *first* the Whorl, retrofitted over time to eventually become\nSeverian's ship. In that case, the time-line problems disappear and all the\nproblems in technology can be explained by the passage of time. This is a\nless elegant solution than you were looking for since it doesn't explain\n\"the cargo\". But IMO it resolves some nasty snarls.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ashley Crill", "address": "ashley.crill at student.oc.edu" }, "date": "2003-08-13T22:46:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) One Ship (long)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": 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} ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-08-14T03:51:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) One Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ashley Crill wrote:\n[amid much snippage]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm of the opinion that the Starcrosser we see in The Book of the Long Sun\nis the same ship as the one upon which Severian sailed to Yesod.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nah. Silk and others from the airship saw the _Whorl_ and the Short Sun of\nthe Blue-Green system from outside the ship when they visited Mainframe in\nEXODUS. The colonists saw the ship as well, from the landers. The _Whorl_\nwas visible to the naked eye in orbit from Blue, therefore could not have\nbeen contained within another vessel. Tzadkiel's ship, at a comparable\ndistance, would have blotted out the stars in a big chunk of night sky." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Second, it contains Chems very similar in construction and role to those\nfound in the Whorl. Jonas himself seems to be a chem, and is a sailor as\nwell.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sidero and his kind were glorified spacesuits with an attitude. They were\nhollow, meant to be worn by men, so they were relatively light of weight.\nSev put on Sidero. Jonas was also lightweight (as Sev noted when he picked\nhim up in the Antechamber), but was not large enough for a man to climb\ninside. Chems are an entirely different kind of machine. They have an access\nplate in their torsos, but are not hollow. They are also very, very heavy\n(particularly the males), as Crane noted in chapter 12 of LAKE: \"Lemur there\nweighs four times as much as you and me together.\"\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }