# One Ship *The Urth list — 4 messages, 3 voices, 13 Aug 2003* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Ashley Crill *13 Aug 2003, 04:07* VGhlcmVzIGEgdGhlb3J5IEkndmUgYmVlbiB3b3JraW5nIG9uIHRoYXQgSSB0aG91Z2h0IEknZCBz aGFyZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBsaXN0LiBUbyBzZXQgdGhlIHN0YWdlIGZvciBpdCwgSSdsbCBnaXZlIGEg cXVvdGUgYnkgU2lkZXJvIGluIHRoZSBVcnRoIG9mIHRoZSBOZXcgU3VuOiAiV2Ugc2FpbCBpbiBh bmQgb3V0IG9mIFRpbWUsIHRoZW4gYmFjayBhZ2Fpbi4gVGhlcmUgaXMgb25seSBvbmUgc2hpcCwg dGhlIGNhcHRhaW4gc2F5cy4gQWxsIHRoZSBzaGlwcyB3ZSBoYWlsIGJldHdlZW4gdGhlIGdhbGF4 aWVzIG9yIHRoZSBzdW5zIGFyZSB0aGlzIHNoaXAuIg0KIA0KSSdtIG9mIHRoZSBvcGluaW9uIHRo YXQgdGhlIFN0YXJjcm9zc2VyIHdlIHNlZSBpbiBUaGUgQm9vayBvZiB0aGUgTG9uZyBTdW4gaXMg dGhlIHNhbWUgc2hpcCBhcyB0aGUgb25lIHVwb24gd2hpY2ggU2V2ZXJpYW4gc2FpbGVkIHRvIFll c29kLiBUaGVyZSBhcmUgc2V2ZXJhbCBwYXNzYWdlcyBpbiBVcnRoIG9mIHRoZSBOZXcgU3VuIHRo YXQgc2VlbSB0byBnaXZlIGNyZWRlbmNlIHRvIHRoaXMgdGhlb3J5IHRoYXQgSSdkIGxpa2UgdG8g 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All the ships we hail between the galaxies or the suns are this ship." Crush responds: Nice attempt. The bit about "only one ship" is a good arguement, but IMO there is at least an equally compelling arguement against it: The Whorl is breaking down. Silk mentions the breaking shiprock that was supposed to last until the end of the Whorl. Well the Whorl was in orbit around Blue and Green for some 30 years before the colonists started to leave, and since the shiprock is deteriorating, and since the Whorl stayed in orbit for another 30? years after the colonists began to depart, it suggests that the Whorl was intended for a one way trip. Also, the Whorl was built by Typhon. Could Severian's ship have been? Your theory does, however, make me wonder about what the Whorl technicians thought what was to ultimately to become of them. Ash says: ...it contains Chems very similar in construction and role to those found in the Whorl. Jonas himself seems to be a chem, and is a sailor as well. Jonas does not seem to be his original name, but the name of the sailor whos body he made use of, much as he took on the name Miles at a later point. Crush responds: Well, Jonas is a different kind of chem than Marble. All the chems are very heavy (Sand is "five-hundred weight" and Marble is too heavy for Silk to lift) but when Severian picked up Jonas he was surprised to discover how light he was. While the story reiterates two or three times how light Hyacinth is and I think there's something to *that*, it is clear that Jonas is a different kind of chem from the standard chems of the Whorl. Mind, I believe Jonas' light weight does work into the Long Sun plot. Nevertheless, IIRC it was Miles who was the human body that Jonas took on -- a whole-body-prosthesis for a robot, just as the Ayuntamiento took chems as whole-body prosthesises. Jonas was all artificial, and Jonas is not a mineral (I don't think). Ash argues: ...the name 'Sideros' means 'iron', which fulfills the need for a mineral name. Ossipago himself is a machine...Sideros notes that beings like himself were originally created as protective suits against the vacuum of space, but later took on specific roles within the ship...Severian sees 'several beings of polished metal', and Sideros is one of those. If Chems were created on board the ship as Sideros claims, then for them to be present on the Starcrosser the two ships would have to be one and the same. Crush responds: Once again, while Sideros uses the same naming convention as the Whorl, his origin is more like that of a talos than a chem. And I don't think there is any mention of names. Kypis notes that she was familiar with "robots" on Urth; further evidence that the origin of the chems is Urth-born not shipborn. Finally, Ossipago and her comrades are not named after minerals, but after gods. The only way I can think to salvage this theory is to say that Severian's ship was *first* the Whorl, retrofitted over time to eventually become Severian's ship. In that case, the time-line problems disappear and all the problems in technology can be explained by the passage of time. This is a less elegant solution than you were looking for since it doesn't explain "the cargo". But IMO it resolves some nasty snarls. -- Crush --- ### Ashley Crill *13 Aug 2003, 22:46 · follows James Wynn* SXQgc2VlbXMgdGhhdCBteSBsYXN0IHBvc3QgZ290IHNjcmFtYmxlZCwgZm9yIHdoaWNoIEkgYXBv bG9naXplLiBIZXJlIGl0IGlzIGFnYWluOg0KDQpUaGVyZXMgYSB0aGVvcnkgSSd2ZSBiZWVuIHdv cmtpbmcgb24gdGhhdCBJIHRob3VnaHQgSSdkIHNoYXJlIHdpdGggdGhlIGxpc3QuIFRvIHNldCB0 aGUgc3RhZ2UgZm9yIGl0LCBJJ2xsIGdpdmUgYSBxdW90ZSBieSBTaWRlcm8gaW4gdGhlIFVydGgg b2YgdGhlIE5ldyBTdW46ICJXZSBzYWlsIGluIGFuZCBvdXQgb2YgVGltZSwgdGhlbiBiYWNrIGFn YWluLiBUaGVyZSBpcyBvbmx5IG9uZSBzaGlwLCB0aGUgY2FwdGFpbiBzYXlzLiBBbGwgdGhlIHNo aXBzIHdlIGhhaWwgYmV0d2VlbiB0aGUgZ2FsYXhpZXMgb3IgdGhlIHN1bnMgYXJlIHRoaXMgc2hp cC4iDQoNCkknbSBvZiB0aGUgb3BpbmlvbiB0aGF0IHRoZSBTdGFyY3Jvc3NlciB3ZSBzZWUgaW4g VGhlIEJvb2sgb2YgdGhlIExvbmcgU3VuIGlzIHRoZSBzYW1lIHNoaXAgYXMgdGhlIG9uZSB1cG9u IHdoaWNoIFNldmVyaWFuIHNhaWxlZCB0byBZZXNvZC4gVGhlcmUgYXJlIHNldmVyYWwgcGFzc2Fn ZXMgaW4gVXJ0aCBvZiB0aGUgTmV3IFN1biB0aGF0IHNlZW0gdG8gZ2l2ZSBjcmVkZW5jZSB0byB0 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Lackey *14 Aug 2003, 03:51 · follows Ashley Crill* Ashley Crill wrote: [amid much snippage] >> I'm of the opinion that the Starcrosser we see in The Book of the Long Sun >> is the same ship as the one upon which Severian sailed to Yesod.<< Nah. Silk and others from the airship saw the _Whorl_ and the Short Sun of the Blue-Green system from outside the ship when they visited Mainframe in EXODUS. The colonists saw the ship as well, from the landers. The _Whorl_ was visible to the naked eye in orbit from Blue, therefore could not have been contained within another vessel. Tzadkiel's ship, at a comparable distance, would have blotted out the stars in a big chunk of night sky. >> Second, it contains Chems very similar in construction and role to those >> found in the Whorl. Jonas himself seems to be a chem, and is a sailor as >> well.<< Sidero and his kind were glorified spacesuits with an attitude. They were hollow, meant to be worn by men, so they were relatively light of weight. Sev put on Sidero. Jonas was also lightweight (as Sev noted when he picked him up in the Antechamber), but was not large enough for a man to climb inside. Chems are an entirely different kind of machine. They have an access plate in their torsos, but are not hollow. They are also very, very heavy (particularly the males), as Crane noted in chapter 12 of LAKE: "Lemur there weighs four times as much as you and me together." -Roy ---