{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4156", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4156, "subject": "GW sightings", "messages": 9, "voices": 8, "first": "2003-08-13T15:43:38+00:00", "last": "2003-08-15T03:16:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "MBS 808", "address": "mbs808 at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-08-13T15:43:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GW sightings", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While websurfing at work, I do not always have time to\nread articles of interest that I happen upon so I\nprint them out to read on my train ride home...\nusually no more than a handful of items, from a wide\nrange of sources from pop culture stuff to news to\ntech to whatever...\n\nAnyway, rare is it to find one GW reference, let alone\ntwo, so I thought I'd share them...\n\nFirst - from a music review site that occasionally\nveers into other topics. This was one of those\noccasions and the author had suggestions for the final\ntwo Harry Potter books.\n\nhttp://www.furia.com/twas/twas0445.html\n\nGW reference: Half the revolutions are for laughs.\nOnly half, but at least half. This isn't Beezus and\nRamona, but neither is it Frodo and Sauron. Re-read\nLloyd Alexander and The Princess Bride, not C. S.\nLewis and Gene Wolfe. This will be the trickiest part\nof the final two years. Six and seven will make four\nand five seem frothy and untroubled, by comparison,\nbut this is still a franchise built on adventure and\nawe. \n\nSecond, a review of a graphic novel, (another volume\nis briefly reviewed in this week's village voice).\n\nhttp://www.ninthart.com/display.php?article=251\n\nGW Reference: While this is the major plotline of\n\"Sin-Eater,\" it's hardly the entire story. The most\nimportant character in the novel isn't Jaeger or the\nGrosvenors, but Anvard itself. Like Thomas M. Disch's\n334 or Gene Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN, FINDER\ncreates a fully-realised world that exists as both a\nfascinating, detailed future world and as a sly\ncommentary on our society. \n\nI also stumbled upon a third this morning, from a more\nlikely source, an editorial from Night Shade Books.\n\nhttp://www.nightshadebooks.com/corona/corona12.html\n\nGW mention: In today’s climate, an acknowledged master\nlike Gene Wolfe would never have gotten a second or\nthird novel published. In fact… I would hazard to say\nthat without David Hartwell, most of Gene Wolfe’s work\nwould not be in print today. As a senior editor at Tor\nMr. Hartwell has done a great job of advocating for\nquality material. And Patrick Nielsen Hayden -- who\noversee's the Orb line of classic reprints -- has\nhelped ensure the genre’s history won't be lost. But,\nat the end of the day, even senior editors at one of\nthe largest SF/Fantasy/horror publishing houses find\nthemselves at the mercies of big media accountants and\nmarketing types that insist a book is only as good as\nits initial six months of sales. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "mweber at library.berkeley.edu" }, "date": "2003-08-13T15:47:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) GW sightings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:43 AM 8/13/2003 -0700, you wrote:\nFirst - from a music review site that occasionally\nveers into other topics. This was one of those\noccasions and the author had suggestions for the final\ntwo Harry Potter books.\n\nhttp://www.furia.com/twas/twas0445.html" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Glenn (the proprietor of The War Against Silence) is a formidable intellect \nand a tireless reviewer of pop music. He's been a presence on the Loud \nFamily list for as long as I can remember, and his column is usually worth \nreading whether you're interested in what he's reviewing or not.\n\n\nMatthew Weber\nCuratorial Assistant\nMusic Library\nUniversity of California, Berkeley\n\nWe went through fire and through water.\n The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _The Book of Psalms_ 66:12" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-08-14T02:57:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) GW sightings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 08:43 AM, MBS 808 wrote:\n\nGW mention: In today’s climate, an acknowledged master\nlike Gene Wolfe would never have gotten a second or\nthird novel published. In fact… I would hazard to say\nthat without David Hartwell, most of Gene Wolfe’s work\nwould not be in print today. As a senior editor at Tor\nMr. Hartwell has done a great job of advocating for\nquality material. And Patrick Nielsen Hayden -- who\noversee's the Orb line of classic reprints -- has\nhelped ensure the genre’s history won't be lost. But,\nat the end of the day, even senior editors at one of\nthe largest SF/Fantasy/horror publishing houses find\nthemselves at the mercies of big media accountants and\nmarketing types that insist a book is only as good as\nits initial six months of sales." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don muses:\n\nTechnology will change this, I think. Just like with the music \nindustry, it is becoming less and less expensive to do things yourself \nwith a good degree of quality. And as the world becomes smaller and \nsmaller (barring apocalyptic calamity) marketing becomes cheaper as \nwell. It's only a matter of time before the myth of literature \nexisting only through the graces of a publishing house loses it's \nmeaning. Almost everything prior to the twentieth century was self \npublished and I think it will go that way again, with the added benefit \n(or curse depending on your view of the masses) that those of small \nmeans can find the funds to bring their cherished works to print \nwithout interference from anyone on high. Still, I would dearly love \nto see a leather bound, single volume edition of BotNS as well as UotNS \nand the rest. Of course, that's not likely to happen unless GW prints \nthem himself. (I for one would pay the exorbitant price to add those \nto my library.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-08-14T07:47:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) GW sightings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 14/08/2003 03:57:09 Lisa Schaffer-Doggett wrote:\nOn Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 08:43 AM, MBS 808 wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "at the end of the day, even senior editors at one of\nthe largest SF/Fantasy/horror publishing houses find\nthemselves at the mercies of big media accountants and\nmarketing types that insist a book is only as good as\nits initial six months of sales." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Technology will change this, I think. Just like with the music\nindustry, it is becoming less and less expensive to do things yourself\nwith a good degree of quality. And as the world becomes smaller and\nsmaller (barring apocalyptic calamity) marketing becomes cheaper as\nwell. It's only a matter of time before the myth of literature\nexisting only through the graces of a publishing house loses it's\nmeaning. Almost everything prior to the twentieth century was self\npublished and I think it will go that way again, with the added benefit\n(or curse depending on your view of the masses) that those of small\nmeans can find the funds to bring their cherished works to print\nwithout interference from anyone on high. Still, I would dearly love\nto see a leather bound, single volume edition of BotNS" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " It's too big! Two volumes, yes. But one would be too prone to \ndamage in reading. (Unread books are not books, even \"prestige\" \neditions.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " as well as UotNS\nand the rest. Of course, that's not likely to happen unless GW prints\nthem himself. (I for one would pay the exorbitant price to add those\nto my library.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well there was (is?) that Vance complete works. I was tempted but at the \ntime couldn't guarantee having usd 1,000 or whatever it was available when \nit would have been needed.\n\nHowever the idea might be sound: a subscription edition with intended \nprint over-run. The runs sold on and any consequent profit on the \nproduction returned to the author as royalty and initial subscribers as \nrefund. Copyrights might be a headache though.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Buice", "address": "mabuice at uchicago.edu" }, "date": "2003-08-14T15:29:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) GW sightings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 09:57 PM, Lisa Schaffer-Doggett \nwrote:\n\nOn Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 08:43 AM, MBS 808 wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW mention: In today’s climate, an acknowledged master\nlike Gene Wolfe would never have gotten a second or\nthird novel published. In fact… I would hazard to say\nthat without David Hartwell, most of Gene Wolfe’s work\nwould not be in print today. As a senior editor at Tor\nMr. Hartwell has done a great job of advocating for\nquality material. And Patrick Nielsen Hayden -- who\noversee's the Orb line of classic reprints -- has\nhelped ensure the genre’s history won't be lost. But,\nat the end of the day, even senior editors at one of\nthe largest SF/Fantasy/horror publishing houses find\nthemselves at the mercies of big media accountants and\nmarketing types that insist a book is only as good as\nits initial six months of sales." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don muses:\n\nTechnology will change this, I think. Just like with the music \nindustry, it is becoming less and less expensive to do things yourself \nwith a good degree of quality. And as the world becomes smaller and \nsmaller (barring apocalyptic calamity) marketing becomes cheaper as \nwell. It's only a matter of time before the myth of literature \nexisting only through the graces of a publishing house loses it's \nmeaning. Almost everything prior to the twentieth century was self \npublished and I think it will go that way again, with the added \nbenefit (or curse depending on your view of the masses) that those of \nsmall means can find the funds to bring their cherished works to print \nwithout interference from anyone on high." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But if all of 300 million people in the US alone had 12 self-published \nnovels, how would one decide what was worth reading? A hierarchy will \nstill present itself with, perhaps more difficult, obstacles to \nobtaining an audience. One could easily imagine that publishing houses \nwould simply become marketing houses for literature, with the same kind \nof standards. Given that anyone near a Barnes and Noble can publish \nsomething for a small fee, I guess this is already beginning.\n\nMichael" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-08-14T17:50:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) GW sightings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 09:57 PM, Lisa Schaffer-Doggett wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 08:43 AM, MBS 808 wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "GW mention: In today’s climate, an acknowledged master\nlike Gene Wolfe would never have gotten a second or\nthird novel published. In fact… I would hazard to say\nthat without David Hartwell, most of Gene Wolfe’s work\nwould not be in print today. As a senior editor at Tor\nMr. Hartwell has done a great job of advocating for\nquality material. And Patrick Nielsen Hayden -- who\noversee's the Orb line of classic reprints -- has\nhelped ensure the genre’s history won't be lost. But,\nat the end of the day, even senior editors at one of\nthe largest SF/Fantasy/horror publishing houses find\nthemselves at the mercies of big media accountants and\nmarketing types that insist a book is only as good as\nits initial six months of sales." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don muses:\n\nTechnology will change this, I think. Just like with the music industry, \nit is becoming less and less expensive to do things yourself with a good \ndegree of quality. And as the world becomes smaller and smaller (barring \napocalyptic calamity) marketing becomes cheaper as well. It's only a \nmatter of time before the myth of literature existing only through the \ngraces of a publishing house loses it's meaning. Almost everything prior \nto the twentieth century was self published and I think it will go that \nway again, with the added benefit (or curse depending on your view of the \nmasses) that those of small means can find the funds to bring their \ncherished works to print without interference from anyone on high." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But if all of 300 million people in the US alone had 12 self-published \nnovels, how would one decide what was worth reading? A hierarchy will \nstill present itself with, perhaps more difficult, obstacles to obtaining \nan audience. One could easily imagine that publishing houses would simply \nbecome marketing houses for literature, with the same kind of standards. \nGiven that anyone near a Barnes and Noble can publish something for a small \nfee, I guess this is already beginning.\n\nMichael" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And there's the rub. Nietzsche lamented the coming of universal literacy and \nadvanced printing methods (whether he was serious or joking, I couldn't tell \nyou) because he foresaw something like this coming. And it's been happening \nfor a long time; the number of books out there is staggering, and even 100 \nyears ago you could probably count on many of them being garbage to your \ntaste. We cope with it by relying on a kind of consensus/trust system: we \ntrust that if X publisher put the book out it may be in a subject we're \ninterested in, and that it has at least some minimum standard of quality; we \ntrust that if a lot of people are buying it, it must have at least some \ncharm; on a more direct level we trust readers we know who have similar \ntastes, and if they recommend it we have a reasonable expectation that it \nwill be worth reading. A self-published author is obviously at an enormous \ndisadvantage, as he can only rely on the last of these methods to start \nwith.\n\nBut the internet *is* making it easier to do this, and quickly - it *has* to \njust to make itself navigable, because it has an even greater explosion of \ninformation than exists in the printed world. Thus you have portals, \nfilters, networks of people who share trusted sources of information and who \nin turn link with other networks of people... So I think it's very possible \nthat a self-published writer could establish a buzz in this day and age. But \nit doesn't sound like a great solution for someone who depends on writing \nfor their living, because god knows how long it would take to get \nprofitable.\n\nCivet" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Allan Lloyd", "address": "allan-lloyd at lineone.net" }, "date": "2003-08-14T18:25:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) GW sightings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Michael Buice\" \nTo: \nSent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 4:29 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) GW sightings\n\n\nBut if all of 300 million people in the US alone had 12 self-published\nnovels, how would one decide what was worth reading? A hierarchy will\nstill present itself with, perhaps more difficult, obstacles to\nobtaining an audience. One could easily imagine that publishing houses\nwould simply become marketing houses for literature, with the same kind\nof standards. Given that anyone near a Barnes and Noble can publish\nsomething for a small fee, I guess this is already beginning.\n\nMichael\n\nThere is a middle way here. I see the future of quality science fiction and\nfantasy in the emergence of high quality small press and print-on-demand\nbooks. In England, Big Engine started to produce interesting and quirky\nbooks, but has unfortunately now run out of money; but the most exciting\npublisher that I have seen so far is Golden Gryphon in the US.\n\nI've just taken delivery of Jeffrey Ford's collection \"The Fantasy Writer's\nAssistant and other stoies\", and the stories look quite Wolfe-like. (This is\nonly a first impression; I look forward to reading some tonight).\n\nThey also publish story collections by Howard Waldrop, Michael Bishop, Andy\nDuncan, Ian Watson, Richard Lupoff, to name just some of my favorites, and\nare now publishing an anthology to celebrate there 25th publication. They\nare very nicely produced books, with a print run of two to three thousand, I\nthink, and I find them addictively attractive. Have to stop myself spending\nmoney.\n\nSpeaking of Jeffrey Ford, I've just read \"The Portrait of Mrs Charbuque\" and\nenjoyed it very much. Has anyone else on the list read it. There are some (I\nthink) knowing references to Gene Wolfe in the book, including an underworld\ncharacter called Mr Wolfe, and an embedded story told by Mrs Charbuque about\nher mother's involvment with or abduction by a possible were-wolf. The book\nis full of disguises and imposters, and is an extremely well-researched\nportrait of late nineteenth century New York. I thought it the most Wolfeian\nnovel that I have read for a long time, even though Ford has said that he is\ntired of being compared to Wolfe.\n\nI'm now trying to find his previous three books, starting with \"The\nPhysiogomy\". Any opinions about these out there?\n\nAllan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-08-14T19:19:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) GW sightings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Civet said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I think it's very possible\nthat a self-published writer could establish a buzz in this day and age." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it doesn't sound like a great solution for someone who depends on writing\nfor their living, because god knows how long it would take to get\nprofitable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds:\nProbably not much longer than it takes for a writer to find a publisher in\ntoday's market. While a lot of lousy books are blocked out of publishing\ncompanies, a lot of lousy books a greenlighted because the publisher thinks\nhe can sell them. There *is* a market for crap out there.\n\nNietzche didn't like the increase in literacy and publishing for the same\nreason he didn't like democracy. He thought the result of both lacked\nnobility -- that they churned out mediocracy. But Nietzche (while right) was\nwrong (about so much). There is no guarantee or even likelihood that\nlimiting access to power (whether political or literary prominence)\nincreases the probability that those who gain it will be of higher quality.\nThis is because there are so many different ways of judging \"quality\", and\nwho judges the judges? There's no guarantee that an established noble class\nwon't produce well-educated, yet inbred, corrupt, and lazy leaders. (Aside:\nEnron drew all its officers and employees from the very apex of the\nmeritocracy -- top 10% of the top schools). Nor is there any guarantee that\npublishers won't largely choose to publish the literary equivalent of\n\"Baywatch\".\n\nNew Publishing will probably take the place that literary mags like\n\"Amazing\" and \"The New Yorker\" used to have. A writer can self-publish and\nstill seek an established market for the same work. An obscure\nself-publishing author that makes very little money is arguably better off\nthan an obscure author that can't find a market for his work. True, in the\noverwhelming din it will be difficult for a single author to become a\nsuperstar, but it will be easier for more good writers to make a living at\ntheir craft and to develop it putting it in front of readers.\n\nAlso, there will be more literary jobs in supporting industries. Consider\nthe potential future market for reviewers in this new world. Think of the\nincreased prominence of peer awards. How else will the bookstores be able to\nweed the marketable crap from the unmarketable? Consider the potential\nmarket for experts from the publishing industry to advise self-publishers.\nActually, as in the California Goldrush where most of the wealth was made by\nselling shovels to prospectors, more money in new publishing overall will be\nmade by the supporting industries. Yet, consider the potential for a strange\nwork to to have success that no one could have anticipated. And more jobs\nfor illustrators of course.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-08-15T03:16:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) GW sightings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Thursday, August 14, 2003, at 10:50 AM, Chris wrote:\n\n[lots of snipping]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the internet *is* making it easier to do this, and quickly - it \n*has* to just to make itself navigable, because it has an even greater \nexplosion of information than exists in the printed world. Thus you \nhave portals, filters, networks of people who share trusted sources of \ninformation and who in turn link with other networks of people... So I \nthink it's very possible that a self-published writer could establish \na buzz in this day and age. But it doesn't sound like a great solution \nfor someone who depends on writing for their living," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Don isolates this part)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " because god knows how long it would take to get profitable.\n\nCivet" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But you see, writing isn't profitable as it is. Harlan Ellison had to \nwork in TV. GW was an engineer. Most writers have to work other jobs, \nas teachers, editors, critics, painters, plumbers, salesmen or \nwhatever. And I mean published writers. It's almost a guaranteed vow \nof poverty. There's often no rhyme or reason to who gets published, it \ntakes a god's day for an accepted work to go from manuscript to printed \nbook, and I have found a lot of nice books for my library for $9.98 on \nthe remainder shelf at the local bookstore. On top of that there is \nthe pressure to make a book marketable because \"You just might make it \nsomeday and be a real writer.\" I say good riddance to the whole \nparasitic structure. One of my great pleasures is picking up an \nunknown book and being surprised by how good it is. The Book of the \nNew Sun blew my mind out of both ears when I read it the first time. \nIt was like being a kid again and reading Lord of the Rings - simply a \ntranscendent moment. One I fully never expected to have again. But I \ndigress (I love writing that. It makes me feel like a supervillian. \n:)). If everyone self publishes, the writers will get much more of the \nprofit, the lousy books will languish unread (but still exist to stroke \nthe writer's ego) and word of mouth will spread for good books just as \nit did in the past. In my decidedly biased opinion, of course.\n\nDon" } ] } ] }