{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4157", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4157, "subject": "Two Ships", "messages": 7, "voices": 6, "first": "2003-08-13T15:42:51+00:00", "last": "2003-08-15T03:42:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-08-13T15:42:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two Ships", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I don't think your Whorl = OneShip hypothesis can stand close \ninspection, as Crush has pointed out. Thematically, however, there may be \nsomething Wolfe intended. The One Ship is related symbolically to the \nChurch: seven sided, existing throughout all of time, moving between the \nheavens and the Briah-world. The Church-as-Ship is just WAY too common \nhistorically for us not to consider it, and Wolfe certainly positions the \nOne Ship in such a way as to point to Church-symbolism.\n But that brings up Typhon's ship as a counterfeit, of course, \nhousing false pastiche religions that he established as a way to control \nthe people inside of it. Given that this is indeed the case, Wolfe may have \nloaded Whorl with \"counterfeit equivalents\" to the features of the One \nShip, for thematic reasons. This might be worth exploring, building on the \nparallels you have mooted.\n There has been speculation here to the effect that Typhon intended \nWhorl to make a circular journey and come back to Urth/Lune at a time after \nthe Flood so he could take over the world again. (To wit: that Blue/Green \nis a later form of Urth/Lune, or vice versa.) If that theory ever is fully \nborne out, the notion of a circular journey would be another point of \ncomparison.\n You know, just for fun: Various fringe Christian sects have said \nthat the Great Pyramid is a key to all of human history, and that it was \nbuilt before the Flood and is the one human artifact to survive the Flood. \nNow, consider Typhon sleeping on the highest mountain on Urth, perhaps \nintending to awaken and take over after the coming Flood. Assuming for the \nnonce that this was Typhon's intention, perhaps Wolfe had this old Pyramid \nmyth in mind....\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-08-14T05:11:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Ships", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 08:42 AM, James Jordan wrote:\n I don't think your Whorl = OneShip hypothesis can stand close \ninspection, as Crush has pointed out. Thematically, however, there may \nbe something Wolfe intended. The One Ship is related symbolically to \nthe Church: seven sided, existing throughout all of time, moving \nbetween the heavens and the Briah-world. The Church-as-Ship is just \nWAY too common historically for us not to consider it, and Wolfe \ncertainly positions the One Ship in such a way as to point to \nChurch-symbolism.\n But that brings up Typhon's ship as a counterfeit, of course, \nhousing false pastiche religions that he established as a way to \ncontrol the people inside of it. Given that this is indeed the case, \nWolfe may have loaded Whorl with \"counterfeit equivalents\" to the \nfeatures of the One Ship, for thematic reasons. This might be worth \nexploring, building on the parallels you have mooted." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don agrees. He finds this a most likely scenario, the Whorl as a \ncorruption of Tzadkiel's ship. Or perhaps a lesser imitation since he \nis suspicious of the \"holiness\" of the Hiero's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 08:04 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nThe only way I can think to salvage this theory is to say that \nSeverian's\nship was *first* the Whorl, retrofitted over time to eventually become\nSeverian's ship. In that case, the time-line problems disappear and \nall the\nproblems in technology can be explained by the passage of time. This \nis a\nless elegant solution than you were looking for since it doesn't \nexplain\n\"the cargo\". But IMO it resolves some nasty snarls." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don doesn't think this is likely. However, Silk did leave for the \nWhorl at the end of RttW and it went on it's merry way to who knows \nwhere. Maybe it went to Yesod. If Silk is Typhon redeemed then this \nmakes an interesting circle. Hmmm." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-08-14T12:53:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Ships", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush suggested:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The only way I can think to salvage this theory is to say that\nSeverian's ship was *first* the Whorl, retrofitted over time to\neventually become Severian's ship. In that case, the time-line\nproblems disappear and all the problems in technology can be\nexplained by the passage of time. This is a less elegant solution\nthan you were looking for since it doesn't explain \"the cargo\".\nBut IMO it resolves some nasty snarls." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don doesn't think this is likely. However, Silk did leave for the\nWhorl at the end of RttW and it went on it's merry way to who knows\nwhere. Maybe it went to Yesod. If Silk is Typhon redeemed then this\nmakes an interesting circle. Hmmm." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds:\nWell, of course its unlikely. Its a cumbersome theory whose main benefit is\nthat it explains the Whorl's existence in view of the captain's claim that\nthere is only *one* ship. Not one \"true\" ship -- one ship. Of course, there\nare more cumbersome theories that I hold true, and two other options -- that\nthe captain was wrong or that Wolfe messed up (the most likely explanation)\n and both seem like cheating to me.\n\nThere is one other option I can think of: The Whorl returned to Urth or\nwherever before Severian's assent to the throne. But that is also unlikely\nif one believes Severian is contemporaneous with Silk. Anyway, how would all\nthe inhabitants land? What would become of the Whorl? It would still \"exist\"\nin orbit.\n\n--- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-08-14T13:18:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Ships", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 14/08/2003 13:53:53 \"James Wynn\" wrote:\nCrush suggested:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The only way I can think to salvage this theory is to say that\nSeverian's ship was *first* the Whorl, retrofitted over time to\neventually become Severian's ship. In that case, the time-line\nproblems disappear and all the problems in technology can be\nexplained by the passage of time. This is a less elegant solution\nthan you were looking for since it doesn't explain \"the cargo\".\nBut IMO it resolves some nasty snarls." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don doesn't think this is likely. However, Silk did leave for the\nWhorl at the end of RttW and it went on it's merry way to who knows\nwhere. Maybe it went to Yesod. If Silk is Typhon redeemed then this\nmakes an interesting circle. Hmmm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush responds:\nWell, of course its unlikely. Its a cumbersome theory whose main benefit \nis\nthat it explains the Whorl's existence in view of the captain's claim \nthat\nthere is only *one* ship. Not one \"true\" ship -- one ship. Of course, \nthere\nare more cumbersome theories that I hold true, and two other options -- \nthat\nthe captain was wrong or that Wolfe messed up (the most likely \nexplanation)\nand both seem like cheating to me.\n\nThere is one other option I can think of: The Whorl returned to Urth or\nwherever before Severian's assent to the throne. But that is also \nunlikely\nif one believes Severian is contemporaneous with Silk. Anyway, how would \nall\nthe inhabitants land? What would become of the Whorl? It would still \n\"exist\"\nin orbit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's another way of looking at it. A qualitative difference between \n\"ships\" and \"Ship\".\n\nThe ships of men which are prosaic things, with which the empire of man \n(from which Typhon retreated) was made and possibly one type of which form \nthe towers of the Citadel. The Ship of Tzadkiel, the ship that can \nnavigate the rivers of time, that can cross between Briah and Yesod, that \ncan appear to be many because it's voyages cross and recross it's own path \nin both space and time almost infinitely.\n\nMatthew\n\n[If the spill chucker had had it's way that could have been \"The Ship of \nTwaddle ... cross between Brian and Yeast\"]" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-08-14T14:21:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Ships", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The universes of New Sun and Short Sun really don't fit together very\nsnugly. IMO, if you took them as standalones, you'd say that Short Sun is in\nthe future, while New Sun is in the *deep* future. A few hundred years\nversus a geological age or two. I think that GW did a lot of back-filling to\ntie them together. (Not that I really mind - myths are generlly cobbled\ntogether from pieces which don't fit very well, in a logical sense.)\n\nObvious examples:\n\n- Typhon in New Sun at least desires to rule an inter-stellar empire, and\noffers Sev the job of satrap of Earth. How does this make any sense without\nsuperluminal travel? If Typhon can travel faster than light, why build the\nWhorl? If he can't, is he really going to feel good about a clunky\nslower-than-light hollow asteroid crawling through space while the immense\nshp/s of the Hiero-whatsits leap/s over dimesnional boundaries?\n- The universe of New Sun has a bunch of human-settled planets in some kind\nof contact with each other, if only via port-calls by Tzadkiel's ship. Why\nwould Typhon think it was a cool thing to send out a slow boat to found a\ncrappy little colony when these old, established ones already exist, and he\npresumably intends to conquer them?\n- The literary survivals from our age in the Chras Writings are *really*\nimplausible for a deep future setting.\n- At some point in Exodus Silk talks of French and Latin as extant languages\n(at least literary languages). Ditto.\n- Why none of the bio-engineered animals from New Sun on the Whorl? No\ndestriers, no smilodons ...\n- Why no chems on Urth, apart from throwbacks like Jonah? Maybe there are\nsome around at the time of Sev vs Typhon in UOTNS; we don't meet them,\nAFAIK. But surely Typhon's army would have been predominantly chems?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-08-14T17:27:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Ships", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush suggested:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The only way I can think to salvage this theory is to say that\nSeverian's ship was *first* the Whorl, retrofitted over time to\neventually become Severian's ship. In that case, the time-line\nproblems disappear and all the problems in technology can be\nexplained by the passage of time. This is a less elegant solution\nthan you were looking for since it doesn't explain \"the cargo\".\nBut IMO it resolves some nasty snarls." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don doesn't think this is likely. However, Silk did leave for the\nWhorl at the end of RttW and it went on it's merry way to who knows\nwhere. Maybe it went to Yesod. If Silk is Typhon redeemed then this\nmakes an interesting circle. Hmmm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush responds:\nWell, of course its unlikely. Its a cumbersome theory whose main benefit is\nthat it explains the Whorl's existence in view of the captain's claim that\nthere is only *one* ship. Not one \"true\" ship -- one ship. Of course, there\nare more cumbersome theories that I hold true, and two other options -- \nthat\nthe captain was wrong or that Wolfe messed up (the most likely explanation)\n and both seem like cheating to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Civet throws in:\nOr, perhaps Tzadkiel's Ship is the archetypal ship (or the ideal form of \n\"shipness\" if you want to go Platonic). Tzadkiel himself seems to operate in \nthe symbolic/angelic realm. It seems to make more sense than interpreting it \nin a strictly physical way (and the transition from Yesod to Briah is \ndebatably a metaphysical one in the first place).\n\nIt also, now that I think about it, has a certain logic of its own. \nTzadkiel's Ship seems to visit Urth during even the most primitive periods \nof technology or sophistication of the natives. Why? Well, strictly speaking \nof it as a freighter, there's no good reason I can think of. Instead, we can \nsay that Tzadkiel's Ship visits all these eras because *it has to, by \nnature* - because all ships are the Ship." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-08-15T03:42:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Ships", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thursday, August 14, 2003, at 07:21 AM, Andrew Bollen wrote:\nThe universes of New Sun and Short Sun really don't fit together very\nsnugly. IMO, if you took them as standalones, you'd say that Short Sun \nis in\nthe future, while New Sun is in the *deep* future. A few hundred years\nversus a geological age or two. I think that GW did a lot of \nback-filling to\ntie them together. (Not that I really mind - myths are generlly cobbled\ntogether from pieces which don't fit very well, in a logical sense.)\n\nObvious examples:\n\n- Typhon in New Sun at least desires to rule an inter-stellar empire, \nand\noffers Sev the job of satrap of Earth. How does this make any sense \nwithout\nsuperluminal travel? If Typhon can travel faster than light, why build \nthe\nWhorl? If he can't, is he really going to feel good about a clunky\nslower-than-light hollow asteroid crawling through space while the \nimmense\nshp/s of the Hiero-whatsits leap/s over dimesnional boundaries?\n- The universe of New Sun has a bunch of human-settled planets in some \nkind\nof contact with each other, if only via port-calls by Tzadkiel's ship. \nWhy\nwould Typhon think it was a cool thing to send out a slow boat to \nfound a\ncrappy little colony when these old, established ones already exist, \nand he\npresumably intends to conquer them?\n- The literary survivals from our age in the Chras Writings are \n*really*\nimplausible for a deep future setting.\n- At some point in Exodus Silk talks of French and Latin as extant \nlanguages\n(at least literary languages). Ditto.\n- Why none of the bio-engineered animals from New Sun on the Whorl? No\ndestriers, no smilodons ...\n- Why no chems on Urth, apart from throwbacks like Jonah? Maybe there \nare\nsome around at the time of Sev vs Typhon in UOTNS; we don't meet them,\nAFAIK. But surely Typhon's army would have been predominantly chems?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don replies:\n\nI think that these \"inconsistencies\" that you bring up may very well \npoint to another motive for the existence of the Whorl. In some \nperverse way, I think Typhon is seeking to create a renewed \"Urth\" \n(meaning whatever planet he chooses to colonize. It will be Urth like, \nbe full of Urthlings, Urth technology and Urth animals). French and \nLatin could easily be recreated from the books in the Library (or \nwhatever stands in for the Library in Typhon's time). Remember, the \nWhorl is not Urth and doesn't have to reflect what the trends and \npatterns are there. It is only a reflection of Typhon's will. As far \nas chem armies, they'd be much more costly and alienating than human \nones. The bio engineered animals aren't there because Typhon doesn't \nwant them. Just some thoughts." } ] } ] }