{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4159",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 4159,
    "subject": "Starcrosser vs hyperspaceship",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "2003-08-14T14:39:59+00:00",
    "last": "2003-08-14T14:39:59+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0308-3896@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "teflon93",
        "address": "teflon93 at cox.net"
      },
      "date": "2003-08-14T14:39:59+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Starcrosser vs hyperspaceship",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I think we're missing something here.  Tzadkiel wasn't a simple spaceship.  It crossed the gap between universes, between Briah and Yesod.  \n\nWhorl never left Briah, as I understand it.  It simply traversed normal space between stars.  If it had been capable of hyperspace, it no doubt not have been a generational starship.  "
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>\nDate: 2003/08/14 Thu AM 01:11:51 EDT\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Two Ships\n\n\nOn Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 08:42 AM, James Jordan wrote:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "        I don't think your Whorl = OneShip hypothesis can stand close \ninspection, as Crush has pointed out. Thematically, however, there may \nbe something Wolfe intended. The One Ship is related symbolically to \nthe Church: seven sided, existing throughout all of time, moving \nbetween the heavens and the Briah-world. The Church-as-Ship is just \nWAY too common historically for us not to consider it, and Wolfe \ncertainly positions the One Ship in such a way as to point to \nChurch-symbolism.\n        But that brings up Typhon's ship as a counterfeit, of course, \nhousing false pastiche religions that he established as a way to \ncontrol the people inside of it. Given that this is indeed the case, \nWolfe may have loaded Whorl with \"counterfeit equivalents\" to the \nfeatures of the One Ship, for thematic reasons. This might be worth \nexploring, building on the parallels you have mooted."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Don agrees.  He finds this a most likely scenario, the Whorl as a \ncorruption of Tzadkiel's ship.  Or perhaps a lesser imitation since he \nis suspicious of the \"holiness\" of the Hiero's.\n\n\nOn Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 08:04 AM, James Wynn wrote:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "The only way I can think to salvage this theory is to say that \nSeverian's\nship was *first* the Whorl, retrofitted over time to eventually become\nSeverian's ship. In that case, the time-line problems disappear and \nall the\nproblems in technology can be explained by the passage of time. This \nis a\nless elegant solution than you were looking for since it doesn't \nexplain\n\"the cargo\". But IMO it resolves some nasty snarls."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Don doesn't think this is likely.  However, Silk did leave for the \nWhorl at the end of RttW and it went on it's merry way to who knows \nwhere.  Maybe it went to Yesod.  If Silk is Typhon redeemed then this \nmakes an interesting circle.  Hmmm.\n\n\n-- "
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}