Subject: Re: (urth) Wolfe physics

From: William Ansley <wansley at warwick.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:10:47 +0000

At 8:05 PM -0500 8/18/03, Michael Buice wrote:
>On Monday, August 18, 2003, at 07:38 PM, Alice K. Turner wrote:
>>No, you haven't. It'a just a consequence of GW's having tried to cobble
>>several sf traditions together that sensibly shouldn't be cobbled. NS not
>>only has FtL effects, but the ship, through some post-Einsteinian doodah
>>that makes my head spin can get there before it started. LS has tradional
>>(in sf) generational travel, and seems pretty well thought out. SS has
>>instantaneous magic flights to other planets that hark back to Burroughs.
>>What's not to be confused about? Sometimes I think you guys spend a lot more
>>time than the author did trying to make sense of all this.
>>
>
>IMHO, Wolfe "cobbled" rather well.  One of the many things I 
>appreciate about Gene Wolfe's writing is the way he deals with 
>science.  Since none of the major "authors" in the Sun universe are 
>scientists themselves, we're to expect some confusion in the 
>relation of the deeper workings of things.  I've always been 
>impressed with how realistic most of it seems, having been filtered 
>through the "lay-brains" of Severian, Horn, etc.  Ever read a 
>"popular" book on Quantum Mechanics?  I've yet to see one get it 
>right.  I've NEVER seen any science fiction in which it's down right 
>(that is, when people try to dig deeper than Severian ever does).
>

Michael Buice,

I'm with alga on this one. IMO the seams really show where Wolfe 
tried to sew the New and Long/Short Suns together. And I'm not really 
sure what the fact that Gene Wolfe is very good at presenting science 
from the point of view of a non-scientist has to do with his trying 
to combine too many disparate elements together, which I think he 
did, especially in Short Sun.

(BTW, did you really mean to put the H in your IMHO? <g> I'm sure you 
didn't mean to imply that you and only you have the absolute grasp of 
physics necessary to judge if it is used properly in popular science 
writing and SF, but you came across that way in your last two posts. 
rather.)
-- 

William Ansley

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From: Michael Buice <mabuice at uchicago.edu>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:57:13 +0000

> writing and SF, but you came across that way in your last two posts. 

	Sorry about that; to me the 'H' has always seems more or less 
self-mocking, displaying an awareness that the speaker is as much of a 
buffoon as the next person.  I do have strong opinions about how 
science is both delivered to and perceived by the public but I did not 
intend to present an insistence that all must without question accept 
my opinion as truth.
	I Humbly apologize for any offense.

> I'm with alga on this one. IMO the seams really show where Wolfe tried 
> to sew the New and Long/Short Suns together. And I'm not really sure 
> what the fact that Gene Wolfe is very good at presenting science from 
> the point of view of a non-scientist has to do with his trying to 
> combine too many disparate elements together, which I think he did, 
> especially in Short Sun.

	I may have lost the thread of the conversation, but I thought the 
discussion of inconsistencies stemmed from the 'One Ship' discussion 
which had been (to me) well-argued out of existence.  The trouble under 
discussion seemed to be the whole generation starship/FTL idea and 
which type the Whorl could have been based on the available 
technologies, etc.  Perhaps I'm the one whose sloppily sewing together 
disparate threads. :)

	Perhaps we could continue in manner more useful to all thusly:

	What specific instances in the Sun books do people see as being 
inconsistent as far as science and technology are concerned, in 
particular with respect to differences between the major works?

Michael

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:41:32 +0000

> did, especially in Short Sun.

Crush disagrees (he thinks):
Two things:
ONE - I'm not sure the seams show between the NS and LS/SS or anywhere else
because I'm still not certain (nor do I think anyone else is) what kind of
garments he is intending or who he had in mind to wear it. With Tailor
Wolfe, it can be hard to tell a seam from a cuff. To change analogies,
Wolfe's writing is so plot-oriented (the characters' behavior seem so
precisely blocked), yet Wolfe has so much of the narrative taking place
behind the scenery (whether we are talking about NS, LS, SS, Peace, Pandora,
or The Fifth Head). I simply cannot imagine what audience Wolfe could have
in mind when he is writing? "Look, the architect carved a little florish
behind these baseboards! Wait! That no florish, that looks like a supporting
beam!"

TWO - I think Wolfe's ease with a having a generation ship share the
universe with a "post-Einsteinian" monstrosity like Tzadkiel is exemplary of
Wolfe adeptness at World-building. He has criticized works that have a
single culture on an entire planet (ala Star Trek); well, how realistic is
it suppose that the existence of a FTL ship would render generation ships
obsolete? Even a single one? That would be like saying that after the
invention of the jet airliner, no one on the same planet would ever think or
regularly moving freight by train, let alone horse and cart. But neither of
these conveyances are on the verge of being eliminated.

I'm not sure this argument really even applies since Tz. moves in and out of
Time and Space -- sharing the universe with an Urth before Europe discovered
America, let alone Typhon's Urth.

-- Crush

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:47:05 +0000

I don't think that's the important point in the generation vs. FTL argument. 
I think a more accurate analogy might be that while the existence of jet 
airplanes do not preclude the existence of triplanes on the same planet, you 
are extremely unlikely to find a jet triplane.

In any event there is very little reason in my mind to equate Tzadkiel's 
ship to the Whorl, or even to posit any relationship between the two. 
Putting an argument together against the possibility seems unnecessary, but 
an ample number of them have been supplied.

-- Civet

>America, let alone Typhon's Urth.

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:29:17 +0000

>particular with respect to differences between the major works?

Typhon launching a slow-boat colony seems at odds with his intention of 
regaining his empire stated when Severian-as-Conciliator meets him.

Given that I'd always had the impression that this was a stellar empire, 
not just a solar one (which may of course be mistaken), the disparity in 
required technology jars.  It also disrupts motive, but that wasn't your 
question.

Matthew

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From: William Ansley <wansley at warwick.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:29:27 +0000

At 10:57 PM -0500 8/18/03, Michael Buice wrote:
>self-mocking, displaying an awareness that the speaker is as much of 
>a buffoon as the next person.  I do have strong opinions about how 
>science is both delivered to and perceived by the public but I did 
>not intend to present an insistence that all must without question 
>accept my opinion as truth.

No offence was taken, by me at any rate.

You seemed to me to be bragging enough about your knowledge of 
physics that the "Humble" in "In My Humble Opinion" seemed a tad 
ironic, so I couldn't resist twitting you on it.

But I should have resisted. It really amounted to nothing more than a 
cheap shot and I apologize, especially as I know from personal 
experience how tough graduate programs in the sciences (or I am sure 
in any field) are.

As for the rest of your message, that will have to wait for later.
-- 

William Ansley

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:16:30 +0000

If Whorl was intended to make a sleau circuit and return to a post-Flood 
Urth/Ushas, that would provide an explanation for its slow speed in a 
culture that had FTL capability, no?
         Assuming Wolfe IS consistent, then this might be another line of 
evidence for the circuit theory.

Nutria

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