{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4177", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4177, "subject": "Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "messages": 16, "voices": 5, "first": "2003-08-19T16:04:05+00:00", "last": "2003-08-20T16:12:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-08-19T16:04:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Josh said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Everyone knows that Leonardo Da Vinci built a mirror thingie like\nthis, right? Or at least drew it in a notebook." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush bites:\n*I* was not aware of this. I googled for it and could only find references\nto to da Vinci's \"mirror-image script\", how he recommended that painters use\na mirror to check their work, and an invention to grind mirrors. It would\nnot be surprising for Wolfe to have an interest in da Vinci since he was one\nof the fathers of modern engineering.\n\nSo please elaborate, Josh!\n\nOn this and on the subject of how well Wolfe describes technical concepts in\nlayman's terms, I have picked up a rumor that Father Inire's mirrors operate\nby quantum tunneling. Is this true and, if so, can any physics grads\ncritique how well he justifies this in the famous \"fish\" explanation\"?\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-08-19T17:26:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 2003-08-19 at 09:04, James Wynn wrote:\nJosh said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Everyone knows that Leonardo Da Vinci built a mirror thingie like\nthis, right? Or at least drew it in a notebook." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*I* was not aware of this. I googled for it and could only find references\nto to da Vinci's \"mirror-image script\", how he recommended that painters use\na mirror to check their work, and an invention to grind mirrors. It would\nnot be surprising for Wolfe to have an interest in da Vinci since he was one\nof the fathers of modern engineering." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Among other things." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So please elaborate, Josh!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've seen the drawing. It's in a book somewhere around here. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On this and on the subject of how well Wolfe describes technical concepts in\nlayman's terms, I have picked up a rumor that Father Inire's mirrors operate\nby quantum tunneling. Is this true and, if so, can any physics grads\ncritique how well he justifies this in the famous \"fish\" explanation\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know about any of this. I do know that time is really \ninteresting, and has a number of poorly documented features.\n\nI'll be building one of these things as soon as I can afford to.\n\nAsk me then.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Martinez", "address": "tonyms at terra.es" }, "date": "2003-08-19T17:21:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On this and on the subject of how well Wolfe describes technical concepts in\nlayman's terms, I have picked up a rumor that Father Inire's mirrors operate\nby quantum tunneling. Is this true and, if so, can any physics grads\ncritique how well he justifies this in the famous \"fish\" explanation\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have a copy of the book on hand, so forgive any\nmisrememberings. I seem to remember the argument goes something like\nthis: light is, mathematically, made up of lots of different\nfrequencies, from 0 upto infinity. This means that some of the\ncomponents of light travel *faster than light*. I remember this scene\nas a speculation that if you could remove all the frequencies which,\nadded together, slow down the sum total, you'd have the ones which\ntravel faster than light. (*)\n\nIt's a nice idea, which someone once told me had been the object of\nstudy. But light seems to strongly resist being separated thus\nso... (**)\n\n --Tony\n\n(*) It's the speed of the wave group which is \"the speed of light\",\nnot it's components.\n\n(**) I remember being told by a physics professor that he knew of a\ngroup which researched this very topic. Year after year, they came up\nwith ingenious ways of splitting the frequencies, and year after year\npeople came up with even more ingenious explanations of how they\nhadn't /quite/ managed it. Dunno how true this is, mind you." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Martinez", "address": "tonyms at terra.es" }, "date": "2003-08-19T17:35:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forgot: the mirrors are one way to filter out all the frequencies\nexcept the one you're interested in, since only the components whose\nwave-lengths subdivide the space between the mirrors exactly add\ntogether, rather than reducing each other. Lasers and the like are\nbuilt on this idea, and provide light with a very narrow frequency\nset--although, unfortunately, below light-speeds.\n\n --Tony\n\nP.S. Um, I think. It's been a while, and I don't have my books and\nnotes etc. with me, so forgive the non-research." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-08-19T18:44:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You'd want a tunable laser.\n\n.\n\n___" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 2003-08-19 at 10:35, Tony Martinez wrote:\nI forgot: the mirrors are one way to filter out all the frequencies\nexcept the one you're interested in, since only the components whose\nwave-lengths subdivide the space between the mirrors exactly add\ntogether, rather than reducing each other. Lasers and the like are\nbuilt on this idea, and provide light with a very narrow frequency\nset--although, unfortunately, below light-speeds.\n\n --Tony\n\nP.S. Um, I think. It's been a while, and I don't have my books and\nnotes etc. with me, so forgive the non-research.\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonio Martinez", "address": "tonyms at terra.es" }, "date": "2003-08-19T18:30:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You'd want a tunable laser." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could you elaborate a little? (I don't remember all this stuff that\nwell!) Is this to modulate the signal, i.e. achieve different speeds?\nOr, as is likely, for some completely different purpose altogether?\n\n Thanks,\n --Tony" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Buice", "address": "mabuice at uchicago.edu" }, "date": "2003-08-19T18:34:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 11:04 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn this and on the subject of how well Wolfe describes technical \nconcepts in\nlayman's terms, I have picked up a rumor that Father Inire's mirrors \noperate\nby quantum tunneling. Is this true and, if so, can any physics grads\ncritique how well he justifies this in the famous \"fish\" explanation\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I recall when I first read New Sun, my exact thought was that \nSeverian was straining to describe something Quantum Mechanical. My \ncopy of Shadow & Claw is out on loan collecting new Wolfe converts at \nthe moment, so it might be awhile before I can contribute something \nerudite and mind-boggling concerning said Fish.\n\nMichael" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Buice", "address": "mabuice at uchicago.edu" }, "date": "2003-08-19T18:50:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 12:21 PM, Tony Martinez wrote:\nI don't have a copy of the book on hand, so forgive any\nmisrememberings. I seem to remember the argument goes something like\nthis: light is, mathematically, made up of lots of different\nfrequencies, from 0 upto infinity. This means that some of the\ncomponents of light travel *faster than light*. I remember this scene\nas a speculation that if you could remove all the frequencies which,\nadded together, slow down the sum total, you'd have the ones which\ntravel faster than light. (*)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fact I believe you are trying to get at is the concept that group \nvelocity and phase velocity are distinct. This is not directly Quantum \nMechanics, per se, just wave mechanics (classical physics; however, it \ndoes apply to QM).\n\nDrop a stone into a pond. You will see circular waves propagating from \nthe impact point. These wave fronts are moving at a certain speed, the \nspeed of \"sound\" in water. The velocity of those wave fronts is called \nthe \"group velocity\" and is the analogous speed referred to by the \n\"speed of light\" for wave packets of light, when it is viewed as an \nelectromagnetic wave.\n\nThese same waves you see on the pond can also be seen as a combination \nof waves which each have precise frequencies of oscillation. These \nconstituent waves travel at all sorts of different speeds, and the same \nsituation is true of light as an electromagnetic wave. Propagating \nthrough a given material, there are components which travel faster and \nslower than the speed of light in that material. This velocity is \ncalled the \"phase velocity\". There have been many experiments which \nhave measured these two velocities and received far more press than \nthey should have for reporting such things as \"speed of light broken\" \nand so forth. You can't \"separate\" these components in the sense that \nyou can't use them to transmit any useful information faster than light \nspeed, which is one colloquial manner of stating the limits placed on \nvelocity by Lorentz invariance (i.e. special relativity).\n\nThe rub is that, under QM, all of these behaviors apply to matter and I \nseem to recall more than a few descriptions of wave mechanical nature \n(or at least what Severian can piece together from what he's been told) \nin New Sun.\n\nMichael" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Martinez", "address": "tonyms at terra.es" }, "date": "2003-08-19T19:04:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On this and on the subject of how well Wolfe describes technical\nconcepts in layman's terms, I have picked up a rumor that Father\nInire's mirrors operate by quantum tunneling. Is this true and, if\nso, can any physics grads critique how well he justifies this in the\nfamous \"fish\" explanation\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[ I'm not a physics grad, so salt cellar at the ready. ]\n\nFWIW, I thought the explanation reminiscent of the EPR\n(Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen) paradox, which is, as you say, an aspect of\nQM (and a very interesting one, linked to the idea of FTL\ncommunication); don't know how it connects to tunneling, though.\n\n --Tony" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-08-19T19:41:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 2003-08-19 at 11:57, Tony Martinez wrote:\n[ I've assumed you didn't CC the list so as not to murder half of it's\n readers with dry technical discussion, so haven't followed up\n there. ]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More like I forgot. I don't think they'd mind, I assume you don't \nmind, and so I am Cc'ing the list now. What the heck, I say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You'd want a tunable laser." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Could you elaborate a little? (I don't remember all this stuff that\nwell!) Is this to modulate the signal, i.e. achieve different speeds?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Right." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah. Perhaps it's a binary transmission, that is, the mirrors set up\nthe monochromatic (FTL) light source, and some other bit handles the\nrest (binary, perhaps, rather than modulation?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I sure don't know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's another thing about mirrors. Time's a direction at right\nangles to the three we know about. You get lots of funny angles with\nmultiple mirrors. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heheheh! I wonder what shaving with them would be like :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A bit of excitement with the straight razor every morning.\n\nWho *does* shave the Spanish barber?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Thanks for the clarification," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are generous!\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Buice", "address": "mabuice at uchicago.edu" }, "date": "2003-08-19T19:18:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 02:04 PM, Tony Martinez wrote:\nFWIW, I thought the explanation reminiscent of the EPR\n(Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen) paradox, which is, as you say, an aspect of\nQM (and a very interesting one, linked to the idea of FTL\ncommunication); don't know how it connects to tunneling, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't connect. EPR has to do with Entanglement, which is unique \nto the mathematical structure of QM. Tunneling is another aspect of \nwave mechanics which happens to carry over to the QM world. If you \nshine light through a prism such that total internal reflection \nprevents the light from escaping the other side of the prism, you can \nstill \"pull it out\", if you will, by holding another prism close to the \nfirst. The light wave will propagate \"over\" the gap between prisms and \ncontinue propagation in the nearby prism, never propagating in the \nspace between. Since QM forces wave-like behavior on matter, it must \nbe able to do this as well. That's what \"Quantum\" Tunneling is.\n\nMichael" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-08-20T04:16:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Martinez wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "FWIW, I thought the explanation reminiscent of the EPR\n(Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen) paradox, which is, as you say, an aspect of\nQM (and a very interesting one, linked to the idea of FTL\ncommunication); don't know how it connects to tunneling, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds:\nMy ability to defend connecting QT with Fr. Inire's Mirrors pretty weak.\nHowever, I thought \"Quantum Tunneling\" sounded promising because it worked\nso well within the themes of tBotNS and Wolfe's general themology in\ngeneral -- specifically, the twinning aspect (as I understand QT).\n\nFor other laymen, my understanding of QT is to imagine a bowling ball\nstationary in a valley between two hills. The ball does not have enough\nenergy to escape the valley based on Newtonian Mechanics, but QM says that\nit is remotely possible that the ball could suddenly appear on the other\nside of one of the hills. Since matter (as energy) cannot be created, one of\nthe bowling balls would have to be destroyed -- if the bowling ball in the\nvalley is destroyed then the ball has moved beyond the valley without any\nenergy expended. This analogy works just as well if the \"hill\" is 500\nmillion light years. I don't really understand math enough to believe this\ncould actually happen -- but I did find a website that offers an experiment\nthat permits one to see it in action (also I'm led to understand transistors\nincorporate QT???):\nhttp://www.altair.org/Qtunnel.htm\n\nWhile this experiment involves a prism instead of a mirror, one could\n*imagine* it being done with mirrors. Also, QT seems to have been observed\nonly in discrete particles over minute distances, but theoretically one\ncould use this method to instantly transport from one end of the universe to\nthe other.\n\nWell, all this seemed so relevant to Severian whose name implies twinning,\nwho is repeatedly annihilated and recreated.\n\nAnother way to imagine QT is to imagine matter as a wave passing through the\nhill -- just as Tzadkiel's ship became a wave to move beyond Space, Time,\nand Universes.\n\nIt seemed to work so nicely, I wonded whether there was any basis to it in\nthe Fish explanation.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-08-20T07:19:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 19/08/2003 18:26:57 Josh Geller wrote:\n\nI don't know about any of this. I do know that time is really\ninteresting, and has a number of poorly documented features." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's \"bugs\" isn't it?\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-08-20T12:18:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 2003-08-20 at 00:19, matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk wrote:\nOn 19/08/2003 18:26:57 Josh Geller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know about any of this. I do know that time is really\ninteresting, and has a number of poorly documented features." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's \"bugs\" isn't it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, bugs are undocumented features. These are merely poorly \ndocumented. Most of them have been well documented at one\ntime or another, but the documentation has been lost, suppressed,\nignored or whatever. A lot of it is actually still around, even\nquite widely distributed, but most people - even the people who \nhave the most to do with it - don't understand it.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Buice", "address": "mabuice at uchicago.edu" }, "date": "2003-08-20T15:14:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 11:16 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n but I did find a website that offers an experiment\nthat permits one to see it in action (also I'm led to understand \ntransistors\nincorporate QT???):\nhttp://www.altair.org/Qtunnel.htm" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't want to be obnoxious, but this is the same experiment I \ndescribed in my previous post about tunneling, and it is completely \naccounted for by Classical Physics, no Quantum Mechanics required." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While this experiment involves a prism instead of a mirror, one could\n*imagine* it being done with mirrors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI don't understand what experiment you're proposing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seemed to work so nicely, I wonded whether there was any basis to \nit in\nthe Fish explanation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tIf you're interested, when my copy of Shadow & Claw is returned to me \nI'll endeavor an examination of the matter.\n\nMichael" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-08-20T16:12:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Father Inire's Mirrors and Wolfe Physics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "After Crush posted the following:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but I did find a website that offers an experiment that permits one\nto see it in action (also I'm led to understand transistors incorporate\nQT???):\nhttp://www.altair.org/Qtunnel.htm" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Michael Buice helped well as he could:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I don't want to be obnoxious, but this is the same experiment I\ndescribed in my previous post about tunneling, and it is completely\naccounted for by Classical Physics, no Quantum Mechanics required." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds:\nAfter stating \"I don't want to be obnoxious\" you should have said \"but I\ncan't help myself\". That would have at least engendered some sympathy.\n\nI didn't receive your post before writing mine, nor did I get a chance to\nread your post before sending it - although I'm sure you can imagine that I\nnormally let nothing interfere with the chance for your wisdom to drop upon\nmy\nignorance-parched tongue. If I confirmed your explanation, what of it?\n\nI think I made it clear that I am not an expert in physics -- nor that I\nshould be trusted with higher mathematics. That's why I posed the questions\nto experts. The website presents the experiment as an example of quantum\ntunnelling. If quantum tunneling does not require quantum mechanics, then\nthat's fine by me.\n\nAfter Crush posted the following" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "While this experiment involves a prism instead of a mirror, one could\n*imagine* it being done with mirrors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Michael Buice said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't understand what experiment you're proposing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds:\nThat because I didn't propose an experiment. However, the first prism *does*\noperate *practically* as a mirror tilted at a 45 degree angle. I recognize\nthat no genuine mirror would be practical for the experiment described. Yet,\nI can *imagine* that if one *did* successfully replace the first prism with\na mirror that the second prism could be replaced as well -- I was thinking\nin terms of plot-device rather than practical engineering. But Father\nInire's mirror's are not real mirrors either. Perhaps they're some sort of\ncosmic prisms.\n\nMichael Buice said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you're interested, when my copy of Shadow & Claw is returned to me\nI'll endeavor an examination of the matter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please, please don't make me wait too long.\n\n-- Crush" } ] } ] }