{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4179", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4179, "subject": "STEW", "messages": 13, "voices": 10, "first": "2003-08-21T04:30:15+00:00", "last": "2003-08-23T08:21:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2003-08-21T04:30:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STEW", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have just finished reading (in small doses) Dianna Wynne Jones's -Tough\nGuide to Fantasyland- which should probably be required for anyone who\nwishes to set a book there. A lot of it made me smile but one thing that\nmade me LOL nearly every time was her frequent references to STEW (always in\nsmall caps, but I'll spare you from here on). I can't actually remember\nanything that people in the Sun books ate, except for the fishes Mucor\ncharms up, but I suppose there are the usual numbers of hapless small\nanimals spitted over campfires. And I really don't want to go back to check.\nHas anyone been obsesssive enough to remember meals?\n\n(To amuse you from DWJ: \"The thoughtful Tourist might like to pause here and\nconsider, since Animals are so rare, what exactly is the meat that the\nManagement puts in its Stew.\")\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-08-21T04:45:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) STEW", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 09:30 PM, Alice K. Turner wrote:\nI have just finished reading (in small doses) Dianna Wynne Jones's \n-Tough\nGuide to Fantasyland- which should probably be required for anyone who\nwishes to set a book there. A lot of it made me smile but one thing \nthat\nmade me LOL nearly every time was her frequent references to STEW \n(always in\nsmall caps, but I'll spare you from here on). I can't actually remember\nanything that people in the Sun books ate, except for the fishes Mucor\ncharms up, but I suppose there are the usual numbers of hapless small\nanimals spitted over campfires. And I really don't want to go back to \ncheck.\nHas anyone been obsesssive enough to remember meals?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I recall, Severian goes hungry quite a lot, a small touch I found \nquite impressive.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-08-21T16:23:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) STEW", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "alga wrote:\nHas anyone been obsesssive enough to remember meals?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahem.\n\nIn Long Sun I remember the fried green tomatoes (Silk salivating over) and\nwatercress sandwiches (that Hyacinth would never eat, remembering the\ndrudgery of harvesting watercress).\n\nIn New Sun, which I happen to be reading now, there is the feast of Saint\nKatharine (big list of showy foodstuffs); the leeks, lentils, and bread\ngiven to Thecla; the seasonal mutton; the fish Severian demands at the inn\non his first night out; the meal ordered at Inn of Lost Loves (roast fowl);\npomegranate, grapes, apple, etc., at Ctesiphon's Cross; Saltus breakfast\n(warm bread, fresh butter, pickled duck's eggs, peppered chocalate beaten\nto a froth); Vodalarii lunch (thrushes); antechamber meals (coffee and\npastries, twice a day); Casdoe's meal (boiled vegetables without salt or\nbutter, coarse bread, a little meat); strips of dried meat on the trail;\nsnow on Mount Typhon; fresh fish, water fowl, wild rice, honey, new bread,\nbutter, vegetables, salad (Severian orders of the hetman); duck (quartered\nand grilled),fish, fried cakes (clams and cattail flour), baked potatoes,\nsalad of mushrooms and greens (what he gets); cooked fish and root\nvegetables among the lake people . . .\n\nI will note, however, that the word \"stew\" is used in URTH (ch. 30,\n\"Ceryx\") as the common term for a public bath house.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2003-08-21T17:28:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) stew", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there ARE a few important details about food in New Sun. The \npomegranate that drips from the eater's mouth, and Dr. Talos' lack of apetite, \netc. Meals are important in Wolfe, but what they eat is not necessarily \nemphasized EXCEPT in Long Sun for those stupid tomatoes that Silk and Maytera \nRose have a disgusting battle of wills over. I've always thought that that \nscene was far more important than I understood ... why else would we talk \nabout slices of food forever?\n\nAlso, it is important that Silk from Book of the Short Sun never eats and gets \nsick in winter. So, yes, I think it is worthwhile to pay attention to the \nmeals in Wolfe books, but I spend countless pages skimming over the banquet \nscenes in other fantasy books. Who cares what they ate if I can't learn \nanything from it? (Unless it's weird, orginal food, like in Jack Vance's \"The \nFace\") Can Severian use the Claw to eliminate his excrement if someone is \nfollowing him? Are fantasy people immune from parasites when they pee in a \nstream? Does Robinson Crusoe have any sexual urges while he's trapped on the \nisland? Some things are better left unexplored in a fantasy world ... I \nthink.\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-08-21T18:21:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) STEW", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does mate' qualify as a stew?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some things are better left unexplored in a fantasy world ... I\nthink." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We must be satisfied with the soup that is set before us, and not desire to\nsee the bones of the ox out of which it has been boiled.\nG.W. Dasent, Popular Tales from the Norse" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cilluff1 at optonline.net", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2003-08-21T18:42:32+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) stew", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "<<>>\n\nThis isn't specifically in response to Marc's email but is on the \"meals\nthat were eaten in BOTNS/LS/SS\" theme. I don't think anyone mentioned this\nmeal yet (I didn't see it in Mantis' list), but of course one of the most\nimportant meals is when Sev eats Thecla (and his predecessor Autarch). \nAlso (although this is stretching it a touch) when the alzabo eats little\nSev's father. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-08-21T19:37:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) stew", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Meals are important in Wolfe, but what they eat is not necessarily\nemphasized EXCEPT in Long Sun for those stupid tomatoes that Silk and Maytera\nRose have a disgusting battle of wills over. I've always thought that that\nscene was far more important than I understood ... why else would we talk\nabout slices of food forever?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Haven't lookt back at it, but remember thinking of tomatolike apple \n(identified in folklore only, of course) of the Garden of Eden, esp. since \nthis happens early in the narrative, linked to garden, women eating first, etc.\n\nNutricious" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2003-08-22T01:14:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Stew", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Highly amused by replies. Mantis, you are obsessive! Of course so is\nNutricious. And how could I have forgotten, for even one moment, of Roast\nThecla.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-08-22T02:17:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Stew", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mantis, you are obsessive!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, no -- I forgot to mention the corn meal gruel at the shepherd's shelter\nbetween Mount Typhon and Lake Diuturna.\n\nNow I'm obsessive.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-08-22T06:35:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) stew", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc wrote:\nAlso, it is important that Silk from Book of the Short Sun never eats and\ngets sick in winter.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tisk, tisk. You're letting your pet theories ride roughshod over what the\ntext actually says--or, sometimes, doesn't say--again. _Of course_ Silk eats\nin SS. To wit:\n\n\"'I had resolved to eat very little tonight, and look at this.' While we had\nbeen talking, I had practically cleaned my plate.\" (IGJ, 71)\n\nThat quote is from the first story-telling dinner at Inclito's; it was the\nfirst example to come to mind. True, Silk isn't a big eater in SS, but\nneither was he in LS. The point is, he _does_ eat in SS.\n\nAs for the Silk/Rose fried-tomato scene, the context of the above quote may\nshed some light. Silk had just declaimed against \"strong emotions of any\nkind\", among them \"greed\", which he specifically links with food. When he\nselfishly declined to share his tomatoes with Rose, he felt a great deal of\nguilt over it afterward, even though food is a necessary condition of life.\nHis experience with the inhumi, to that point, had taught him that their\nquest for food--for blood--went beyond what was strictly necessary to\nmaintain life: they wanted _human_ blood, to become like men. The irony is\nthat, to become like men, to acquire the blood, they must kill (unless they\ntake extraordinary care) what they most love. Their animal nature overrides\ntheir borrowed humanity. Remember those clogged sewers on Green. Should an\ninhumi have the misfortune to acquire a \"conscience\" (if such a thing is\npossible), its position becomes untenable. Silk has a conscience, therefore\ncan take no joy in eating, an activity he must condemn in the inhumi.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-08-22T07:14:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) STEW", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 21/08/2003 17:23:16 Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nI will note, however, that the word \"stew\" is used in URTH (ch. 30,\n\"Ceryx\") as the common term for a public bath house." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From Middle English, stewen; to bathe in a steam bath. Hence informal \nmodern usage; to suffer with oppressive heat. Thence also possibly to \nworry, be agitated.\n\nBy Early Modern English (c1400) stew as in bath-house had become \nsynonymous with brothel, especially in the plural. Also by derivation a \nprostitutue. Even when not directly meant the term suggested squalour, \npoverty and crime as in London's c16 theatres being in the stews of \nSouthwark and Shorditch.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-08-22T17:37:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) stew", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that this misses a very important point. It's not that the inhumi's \n\"animal nature\" overrides their humanity - it's that the \"humanity\" they're \nacquiring is not quite so humane as we'd hope for. Silkhorn says repeatedly \nthat if we could get our *own* act together, we'd have nothing to fear from \nthe inhumi. The clogged sewers of Green are merely the reflection of what \npeople on Blue were doing to each other.\n\nWithout going too much into my personal interpretation of SS, it always \nseemed to me that Silkhorn's restraint w.r.t. his appetite was meant to \nbe... well, I guess the best way to say it is \"an example\". And that he \nbelieved, at least, that it would result in one or more inhumi learning to \ncontrol their own appetites. He may actually take this lesson a bit too far \nin a frenzy of guilt, but I think this is the principle he's trying to go \nby.\n\nCivet\n\n\nRoy said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His experience with the inhumi, to that point, had taught him that their\nquest for food--for blood--went beyond what was strictly necessary to\nmaintain life: they wanted _human_ blood, to become like men. The irony is\nthat, to become like men, to acquire the blood, they must kill (unless they\ntake extraordinary care) what they most love. Their animal nature overrides\ntheir borrowed humanity. Remember those clogged sewers on Green. Should an\ninhumi have the misfortune to acquire a \"conscience\" (if such a thing is\npossible), its position becomes untenable. Silk has a conscience, therefore\ncan take no joy in eating, an activity he must condemn in the inhumi.\n\n-Roy\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2003-08-23T08:21:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Stew", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, thanks all for being so amusing and/or obsesssive! There's a waggish\nterm paper for someone in this somewhere I'm sure. I blush, Pippen\n(shouldn't that be Pippin--but no, aren't you a guy?- you're not supposed to\nbe veggie), not to have immediately remembered the coffee and pastries an\nthe anteroom, for I have always thought that was a brilliant touch, well\nbeyond the imagination of most writers.\n\n-alga" } ] } ] }