{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4196", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4196, "subject": "reckless speculation on Typhon and Quetzal", "messages": 7, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-09-04T22:12:42+00:00", "last": "2003-09-05T01:20:04+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-09-04T22:12:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) reckless speculation on Typhon and Quetzal", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don posited:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon ...is the father of the unsleeping serpent that guards the\nGolden Fleece. So I spent the next hour or so googling around\nrandomly and came across these two sites. The first is\ninteresting because it places the Golden Fleece as a solar\nrepresentation. I don't expect anyone to buy this but the\nKholkian Drakon (do inhumi sleep?), the offspring of Typhon is\nthe guardian of the Golden Fleece (which I read somewhere\ncould also be a golden apple)/Sun. What I mean is Quetzal, the\noffspring of Typhon (or a clone thereof), is the guardian (via the\nChapter) of Silk (the Long Sun). I know, I know, you don't buy it.\nStill it's in the record now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds:\nThe importance of archetypes in understanding what is going on in the Long\nand Short Suns can hardly be overemphasized. And I agree that the serpent\nLadon the is to be found on the Whorl. The thing is that Quetzal is not the\nonly serpent on Whorl (he's not even the only inhumi). There are lots and\nlots of them. The Trivigaunte are serpents and so is Newt and Kingcup. The\nLemur family are all serpents because they have shed their skin in a bid for\nimmortality as serpents were classically believed to do. Wolfe has used this\nshedding skin analogy before. And so consequently, I have asserted that\n*Pas* is Ladon. Pas is Typhon's \"son\" in the same complex (and Biblical)\nsense that Number Five was Maitre's \"son\". He is a serpent in that he Typhon\nhaving shed his skin to acheive immortality.\n\nThe exasperating part of assigning archetypes in Wolfe's works is that he is\nso clever about it.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-09-04T22:32:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) reckless speculation on Typhon and Quetzal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You said a mouthful. I just read \"There Are Doors\" and was playing around \ntracking references to Attis/Dionysus/etc. looking for more keys that I \nhadn't picked up. In the process I found lots of alternate stories of Attis \nI hadn't known about, many of which contradict each other, and Wolfe appears \nto have been using ALL OF THEM, sometimes at the same time. His grasp of \nmyth continues to impress me.\n\n- Civet\n\nCrush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The exasperating part of assigning archetypes in Wolfe's works is that he \nis\nso clever about it.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-05T00:28:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) reckless speculation on Typhon and Quetzal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 03:12 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nThe importance of archetypes in understanding what is going on in the \nLong\nand Short Suns can hardly be overemphasized. And I agree that the \nserpent\nLadon the is to be found on the Whorl. The thing is that Quetzal is \nnot the\nonly serpent on Whorl (he's not even the only inhumi). There are lots \nand\nlots of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but Quetzal is the only inhumu who is a Sun archetype, Dionysus. \nThis singles him out as being somehow related to Typhon and Silk (and \nSeverian) imo. According to Graves there are only two, one for each \nhalf of the year. Mr. Wolfe is an amazing exploiter of the disconnects \nbetween various versions of a myth, using science fiction as the glue. \nFor example, one of the fatal (and annoying) problems with Graves is \nthat he supports an argument with the myth of Cronos and Zeus (father \nand son) one minute and butresses the rest of the argument with the \nmyth of Set/Typhon and Osiris (brothers) ignoring the obvious problems \nthis poses. Cloning solves this problem in the Sun cycle. If Typhon \nis Severian's genetic father then Silk (as Typhon's clone) is also \nSeverian's father (Cronos and Zeus). However Silk, as Typhon's clone, \nis also in a sense his son and thus he and Severian could also be \nconsidered brothers (Set/Typhon and Osiris). I'll belabor my point \nwith something I thought of yesterday. I'm not sure if this has been \ndiscussed but one of Severian's obvious archetypes is Apollo, or \nApollon as I keep seeing it lately. Well Apollo is connected to \nApollyon the Destroyer who is not really a fallen angel but the \nrighteous angel of Hell's pit. Severian the Destroying Sun. So to my \nway of thinking (which I know many discount) it makes perfect sense \nthat Mr. Wolfe would identify Quetzal with Typhon by identifying him \nwith Dionysis (though there are a myriad of other reasons for that in \naddition. What a genius!) and also identify him as the serpent of \nColchis through the biology (two or three books later, good lord!) of \nthe inhumi's reproductive cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 03:32 PM, Chris wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You said a mouthful. I just read \"There Are Doors\" and was playing \naround tracking references to Attis/Dionysus/etc. looking for more \nkeys that I hadn't picked up. In the process I found lots of alternate \nstories of Attis I hadn't known about, many of which contradict each \nother, and Wolfe appears to have been using ALL OF THEM, sometimes at \nthe same time. His grasp of myth continues to impress me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed! It's maddening. Speaking of which, I'm being told I have to \ngo to my room and take my medication now.\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-09-05T00:33:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) reckless speculation on Typhon and Quetzal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:12 PM 9/4/2003, you wrote:\nCrush responds:\nThe importance of archetypes in understanding what is going on in the Long\nand Short Suns can hardly be overemphasized." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is important to bear in mind, because we readers have a tendency to \nsee identity where there is only archetype in operation. If someone looks \nand acts a bit like Apollo he must be version of Severian. Not necessarily.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-05T01:00:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) reckless speculation on Typhon and Quetzal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 05:33 PM, James Jordan wrote:\nAt 05:12 PM 9/4/2003, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Crush responds:\nThe importance of archetypes in understanding what is going on in the \nLong\nand Short Suns can hardly be overemphasized." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is important to bear in mind, because we readers have a tendency \nto see identity where there is only archetype in operation. If someone \nlooks and acts a bit like Apollo he must be version of Severian. Not \nnecessarily.\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but in a work that is set up as a puzzle archetypal cue and clues \nshould not be (and I think are not) carelessly placed.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-09-05T01:14:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) reckless speculation on Typhon and Quetzal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:00 PM 9/4/2003, you wrote:\nOn Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 05:33 PM, James Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 05:12 PM 9/4/2003, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Crush responds:\nThe importance of archetypes in understanding what is going on in the Long\nand Short Suns can hardly be overemphasized." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is important to bear in mind, because we readers have a tendency to \nsee identity where there is only archetype in operation. If someone looks \nand acts a bit like Apollo he must be version of Severian. Not necessarily.\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but in a work that is set up as a puzzle archetypal cue and clues \nshould not be (and I think are not) carelessly placed.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Granted. And there are all those clones....\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-09-05T01:20:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) reckless speculation on Typhon and Quetzal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:28 PM 9/4/2003, you wrote:\nOn Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 03:12 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The importance of archetypes in understanding what is going on in the Long\nand Short Suns can hardly be overemphasized. And I agree that the serpent\nLadon the is to be found on the Whorl. The thing is that Quetzal is not the\nonly serpent on Whorl (he's not even the only inhumi). There are lots and\nlots of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but Quetzal is the only inhumu who is a Sun archetype, Dionysus.\nThis singles him out as being somehow related to Typhon and Silk (and \nSeverian) imo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, Wolfe has said that Typhon had no knowledge of the inhumi, so any \nkind of literal or clone/paternity relationship between him and Quetzal \nseems to be out. Symbolically you may be on to something, but it has \nappeared to me that Quetzal is a serpent in Typhon's garden, and the \nallusions are Biblical in some kind of way. Like the ur-serpent, Quetzal \nhas entered the garden and has his own plans for its people, plans quite \ndifferent from Pas's.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }