Subject: Re: (urth) reckless speculation on Typhon and Quetzal

From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 22:12:42 +0000

Don posited:
> Typhon ...is the father of the unsleeping serpent that guards the
> Golden Fleece.  So I spent the next hour or so googling around
> randomly and came across these two sites. The first is
> interesting because it places the Golden Fleece as a solar
> representation.  I don't expect anyone to buy this but the
> Kholkian Drakon (do inhumi sleep?), the offspring of Typhon is
> the guardian of the Golden Fleece (which I read somewhere
> could also be a golden apple)/Sun.  What I mean is Quetzal, the
> offspring of Typhon (or a clone thereof), is the guardian (via the
> Chapter) of Silk (the Long Sun).  I know, I know, you don't buy it.
> Still it's in the record now.

Crush responds:
The importance of archetypes in understanding what is going on in the Long
and Short Suns can hardly be overemphasized. And I agree that the serpent
Ladon the is to be found on the Whorl.  The thing is that Quetzal is not the
only serpent on Whorl (he's not even the only inhumi). There are lots and
lots of them. The Trivigaunte are serpents and so is Newt and Kingcup. The
Lemur family are all serpents because they have shed their skin in a bid for
immortality as serpents were classically believed to do. Wolfe has used this
shedding skin analogy before. And so consequently, I have asserted that
*Pas* is Ladon. Pas is Typhon's "son" in the same complex (and Biblical)
sense that Number Five was Maitre's "son". He is a serpent in that he Typhon
having shed his skin to acheive immortality.

The exasperating part of assigning archetypes in Wolfe's works is that he is
so clever about it.

-- Crush

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 22:32:41 +0000

You said a mouthful. I just read "There Are Doors" and was playing around 
tracking references to Attis/Dionysus/etc. looking for more keys that I 
hadn't picked up. In the process I found lots of alternate stories of Attis 
I hadn't known about, many of which contradict each other, and Wolfe appears 
to have been using ALL OF THEM, sometimes at the same time. His grasp of 
myth continues to impress me.

- Civet

>The exasperating part of assigning archetypes in Wolfe's works is that he 

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From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 00:28:55 +0000

On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 03:12 PM, James Wynn wrote:

> lots of them.

Yes, but Quetzal is the only inhumu who is a Sun archetype, Dionysus.  
This singles him out as being somehow related to Typhon and Silk (and 
Severian) imo.  According to Graves there are only two, one for each 
half of the year.  Mr. Wolfe is an amazing exploiter of the disconnects 
between various versions of a myth, using science fiction as the glue.  
For example, one of the fatal (and annoying) problems with Graves is 
that he supports an argument with the myth of Cronos and Zeus (father 
and son) one minute and butresses the rest of the argument with the 
myth of Set/Typhon and Osiris (brothers) ignoring the obvious problems 
this poses.  Cloning solves this problem in the Sun cycle.  If Typhon 
is Severian's genetic father then Silk (as Typhon's clone) is also 
Severian's father (Cronos and Zeus).  However Silk, as Typhon's clone, 
is also in a sense his son and thus he and Severian could also be 
considered brothers (Set/Typhon and Osiris).  I'll belabor my point 
with something I thought of yesterday.  I'm not sure if this has been 
discussed but one of Severian's obvious archetypes is Apollo, or 
Apollon as I keep seeing it lately.  Well Apollo is connected to 
Apollyon the Destroyer who is not really a fallen angel but the 
righteous angel of Hell's pit.  Severian the Destroying Sun.  So to my 
way of thinking (which I know many discount) it makes perfect sense 
that Mr. Wolfe would identify Quetzal with Typhon by identifying him 
with Dionysis (though there are a myriad of other reasons for that in 
addition.  What a genius!) and also identify him as the serpent of 
Colchis through the biology (two or three books later, good lord!) of 
the inhumi's reproductive cycle.

> On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 03:32 PM, Chris wrote:

> You said a mouthful. I just read "There Are Doors" and was playing 
> around tracking references to Attis/Dionysus/etc. looking for more 
> keys that I hadn't picked up. In the process I found lots of alternate 
> stories of Attis I hadn't known about, many of which contradict each 
> other, and Wolfe appears to have been using ALL OF THEM, sometimes at 
> the same time. His grasp of myth continues to impress me.
>
>
Indeed!  It's maddening.  Speaking of which, I'm being told I have to 
go to my room and take my medication now.
Don

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 00:33:16 +0000

At 05:12 PM 9/4/2003, you wrote:

>and Short Suns can hardly be overemphasized.

This is important to bear in mind, because we readers have a tendency to 
see identity where there is only archetype in operation. If someone looks 
and acts a bit like Apollo he must be version of Severian. Not necessarily.

Nutria

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From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:00:47 +0000

On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 05:33 PM, James Jordan wrote:

> This is important to bear in mind, because we readers have a tendency 
> to see identity where there is only archetype in operation. If someone 
> looks and acts a bit like Apollo he must be version of Severian. Not 
> necessarily.
>
> Nutria
>
>

Yes, but in a work that is set up as a puzzle archetypal cue and clues 
should not be (and I think are not) carelessly placed.

Don

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:14:53 +0000

>should not be (and I think are not) carelessly placed.

Granted. And there are all those clones....

Nutria

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:20:04 +0000

At 07:28 PM 9/4/2003, you wrote:

>Severian) imo.

IIRC, Wolfe has said that Typhon had no knowledge of the inhumi, so any 
kind of literal or clone/paternity relationship between him and Quetzal 
seems to be out. Symbolically you may be on to something, but it has 
appeared to me that Quetzal is a serpent in Typhon's garden, and the 
allusions are Biblical in some kind of way. Like the ur-serpent, Quetzal 
has entered the garden and has his own plans for its people, plans quite 
different from Pas's.

Nutria

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