{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4198", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4198, "subject": "Typhon and Quetzal", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-09-05T01:59:04+00:00", "last": "2003-09-06T01:31:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-09-05T01:59:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon and Quetzal", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but Quetzal is the only inhumu who is a Sun archetype, Dionysus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How can you say that? You are the one that argued (successfully IMO) that\nSilk is a clone of Typhon!\n\nIf Silk parallels Apollo (one of the more indisputable parallels with him\nprophecing at the Sun St. mantaeon and all) then Pas is a Sun archetype too.\nActually he's the ultimate Sun parallel because as a module/interface of\nMainframe he is the Long Sun itself.\n\nAre you partial to Quetzal being Ladon because it fits so nicely with the\nTree in the Garden? Regardless of what the comparitive mythology references\nsay, Ladon and the Eden serpent are patently not the same characters (unless\none says that Atlas and or Heracles is Jesus, but that would undermine the\ncomparitive arguement).\n\n I think it would be obvious to Wolfe that this is so, as soon as he tried\n(as surely occurred to him) to draw the connection between the two. Ladon\n*guards* the fruit of the Hesperides, but the Eden serpent enticed humanity\nto eat of it. Or to use Quetzal's story, the cobra *wanted* the man and\nwoman to climb his Tree.\n\nI know, I know. There's an astromical connection. But I'm talking about the\ncontext of the stories.\n\nAnyway, the inhumi are the fabled Pajaro Cu, which was created without\nfeathers (that is, without personality), and took the feathers from the\nother creatures around him. You seem to be suggesting that they *do* come\nwith personalities. On top of this, is Wolfe's stated claim that Typhon did\nnot know about the inhumi (granted that I believe Wolfe lies, but not in so\nblatently).\n\nFinally, associating Quetzal via cloning is overly complex. Quetzal could\njust as well become another Silk by feeding on him (which I'm convinced he\ndid). If you are convinced that Quetzal is to be thematically *identified*\nwith Typhon/Pas rather that \"merely\" associated with him (as Moses and\nAlexander the Great are associated), I'd be curious to know what are your\nother reasons for this. I think identifying Ladon with Pas is so much\ncleaner.\n\nBTW if you can explain how Severian and Typhon can be clones and yet look so\ndifferent -- ideally if you can name some textual suggestion that it is\npossible --it would be helpful to your Typhon-Severian theory, and would\nmake me extremely receptive to it. But mythopoetically speaking, shouldn't\nSeverian and Typhon be brothers? Cloning would make them the same person, or\nfather and son, as I understand Wolfe's POV on it. Unless Typhon is a\nfellow clone.\n\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-05T07:17:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon and Quetzal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 06:59 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n Anyway, the inhumi are the fabled Pajaro Cu, which was created \nwithout\nfeathers (that is, without personality), and took the feathers from the\nother creatures around him. You seem to be suggesting that they *do* \ncome\nwith personalities. On top of this, is Wolfe's stated claim that \nTyphon did\nnot know about the inhumi (granted that I believe Wolfe lies, but not \nin so\nblatently)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Silk and Typhon are the same it would only be necessary for \nQuetzal's mother (or do I have the morphology wrong?) to have fed on \nSilk. Or his mother could have fed on Typhon without his knowledge. \nThis also handily explains how Quetzal knows so much about Typhon. \nStill there is the resolution of Quetzal's age vs. Silk. A problem for \nsure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally, associating Quetzal via cloning is overly complex. Quetzal \ncould\njust as well become another Silk by feeding on him (which I'm \nconvinced he\ndid)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wouldn't this still be the equivalent of his being \"born\" from the \nblood of Typhon? That actually solves the first problem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you are convinced that Quetzal is to be thematically *identified*\nwith Typhon/Pas rather that \"merely\" associated with him (as Moses and\nAlexander the Great are associated), I'd be curious to know what are \nyour\nother reasons for this. I think identifying Ladon with Pas is so much\ncleaner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See above. Thematically Pas and Quetzal are the same. Pas is a \ndownload of Typhon. Quetzal is a download (according to your theory) \nof Silk. Silk is Typhon (redeemed)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BTW if you can explain how Severian and Typhon can be clones and yet \nlook so\ndifferent -- ideally if you can name some textual suggestion that it is\npossible --it would be helpful to your Typhon-Severian theory, and \nwould\nmake me extremely receptive to it. But mythopoetically speaking, \nshouldn't\nSeverian and Typhon be brothers? Cloning would make them the same \nperson, or\nfather and son, as I understand Wolfe's POV on it. Unless Typhon is a\nfellow clone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we have a misunderstanding here. I believe Typhon is the \nfather of Ymar and Severian is Ymar's clone. Thus Typhon is Sev's \nfather. Silk is a clone of Typhon, so genetically they're twins, but \nchronologically and biblically (to borrow from Nutria) they are father \nand son. So Silk is Typhon's \"son\" and Sev is Typhon's \"son\" making \nthem brothers, but genetically Silk is Typhon and Sev is Ymar so they \nare also father and son. Whew! I see why GW hid this. Prosaically it \nis awkward. Poetically however I think it is beautiful.\n\nregards\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-09-05T19:51:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon and Quetzal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don wrote:\nIf Silk and Typhon are the same it would only be necessary for\nQuetzal's mother (or do I have the morphology wrong?) to have fed on\nSilk. Or his mother could have fed on Typhon without his knowledge.\nThis also handily explains how Quetzal knows so much about Typhon.\nStill there is the resolution of Quetzal's age vs. Silk. A problem for\nsure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An insurmountable problem. Quetzal had been Prolocutor for more than thirty\nyears, and it would have taken him years more to reach that position. Silk\nwas 23 years old. It's not physically possible for Quetzal's mother to have\nfed on Silk.\n\nAs for Quetzal's mother having fed on Typhon, that would require her having\nbeen on Urth prior to the building of the _Whorl_. There is no textual\nevidence in the Sun Cycle to support the inhumi having been on Urth that I\nam aware of. The list of characters in EXODUS specifically states that\nQuetzal was \"native to Green\". How could she have gone form Urth to Green to\ngive birth a thousand years later? (The interval between Typhon and\nSeverian.)\n\nIf you want to use the Ushas is Blue/Green theory to cover the problem of\nspatial distance, then you run into a temporal problem. The time between\nantediluvian Typhon and the Blue that Horn migrated to is too vast to have\nbeen bridged by the lifespans of Quetzal and his mother. For the Neighbors\nto have evolved on postdiluvian Urth, for their civilization to rise and\nfall (both on Blue and Green), would have taken tens of thousands of years,\nif not longer.\n\nAnd the future that Sev bought, at the expense of millions of lives, would\nseem to have been an epic boondoggle. Not to mention that there isn't a\nGreen Man to be seen. And Silk, the virtual saint, thought so highly of the\nIncreate/Outsider's new world that he packed up his things and left for\ngreener pastures.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-09-05T20:31:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon and Quetzal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but Quetzal is the only inhumu who is a Sun archetype, Dionysus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Roy correctly (qualifiedly) asserted:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is no textual\nevidence in the Sun Cycle to support the inhumi having been on Urth that I\nam aware of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush interjects:\nDon's pointer and Roy's assertion reminded me of another pointer to Pas as\nthe serpent Ladon:\nTyphon/Pas is variously identified with King Midas who according to Graves\nwas originally a Sun god.\n\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-09-06T01:31:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon and Quetzal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 02:51 PM 9/5/2003, you wrote:\n\nAnd Silk, the virtual saint, thought so highly of the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Increate/Outsider's new world that he packed up his things and left for\ngreener pastures.\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With the rest of this post I agree, in the main. But I think Silk left \nbecause \"mission accomplished.\" And this, perhaps, is how the Narrator is \nequivalent to the Short Sun: He shines briefly, long enough to set a number \nof things in motion.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }