Subject: Re: (urth) Typhon and Quetzal

From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:59:04 +0000

> Yes, but Quetzal is the only inhumu who is a Sun archetype, Dionysus.

How can you say that? You are the one that argued (successfully IMO) that
Silk is a clone of Typhon!

If Silk parallels Apollo (one of the more indisputable parallels with him
prophecing at the Sun St. mantaeon and all) then Pas is a Sun archetype too.
Actually he's the ultimate Sun parallel because as a module/interface of
Mainframe he is the Long Sun itself.

Are you partial to Quetzal being Ladon because it fits so nicely with the
Tree in the Garden? Regardless of what the comparitive mythology references
say, Ladon and the Eden serpent are patently not the same characters (unless
one says that Atlas and or Heracles is Jesus, but that would undermine the
comparitive arguement).

 I think it would be obvious to Wolfe that this is so, as soon as he tried
(as surely occurred to him) to draw the connection between the two. Ladon
*guards* the fruit of the Hesperides, but the Eden serpent enticed humanity
to eat of it. Or to use Quetzal's story, the cobra *wanted* the man and
woman to climb his Tree.

I know, I know. There's an astromical connection.  But I'm talking about the
context of the stories.

Anyway, the inhumi are the fabled Pajaro Cu, which was created without
feathers (that is, without personality), and took the feathers from the
other creatures around him. You seem to be suggesting that they *do* come
with personalities. On top of this, is Wolfe's stated claim that Typhon did
not know about the inhumi (granted that I believe Wolfe lies, but not in so
blatently).

Finally, associating Quetzal via cloning is overly complex. Quetzal could
just as well become another Silk by feeding on him (which I'm convinced he
did). If you are convinced that Quetzal is to be thematically *identified*
with Typhon/Pas rather that "merely" associated with him (as Moses and
Alexander the Great are associated), I'd be curious to know what are your
other reasons for this. I think identifying Ladon with Pas is so much
cleaner.

BTW if you can explain how Severian and Typhon can be clones and yet look so
different -- ideally if you can name some textual suggestion that it is
possible --it would be helpful to your Typhon-Severian theory, and would
make me extremely receptive to it. But mythopoetically speaking, shouldn't
Severian and Typhon be brothers? Cloning would make them the same person, or
father and son,  as I understand Wolfe's POV on it. Unless Typhon is a
fellow clone.

-- Crush

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From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 07:17:47 +0000

> not know about the inhumi (granted that I believe Wolfe lies, but not 

If Silk and Typhon are the same it would only be necessary for 
Quetzal's mother (or do I have the morphology wrong?) to have fed on 
Silk.  Or his mother could have fed on Typhon without his knowledge.  
This also handily explains how Quetzal knows so much about Typhon.   
Still there is the resolution of Quetzal's age vs. Silk.  A problem for 
sure.

> did).
Wouldn't this still be the equivalent of his being "born" from the 
blood of Typhon?  That actually solves the first problem.

> If you are convinced that Quetzal is to be thematically *identified*
See above.  Thematically Pas and Quetzal are the same.  Pas is a 
download of Typhon.  Quetzal is a download (according to your theory) 
of Silk.  Silk is Typhon (redeemed).
> father and son,  as I understand Wolfe's POV on it. Unless Typhon is a
I think we have a misunderstanding here.  I believe Typhon is the 
father of Ymar and Severian is Ymar's clone.  Thus Typhon is Sev's 
father.  Silk is a clone of Typhon, so genetically they're twins, but 
chronologically and biblically (to borrow from Nutria) they are father 
and son.  So Silk is Typhon's "son" and Sev is Typhon's "son" making 
them brothers, but genetically Silk is Typhon and Sev is Ymar so they 
are also father and son.  Whew!  I see why GW hid this.  Prosaically it 
is awkward.  Poetically however I think it is beautiful.

regards
Don

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 19:51:10 +0000

>Still there is the resolution of Quetzal's age vs. Silk.  A problem for

An insurmountable problem. Quetzal had been Prolocutor for more than thirty
years, and it would have taken him years more to reach that position. Silk
was 23 years old. It's not physically possible for Quetzal's mother to have
fed on Silk.

As for Quetzal's mother having fed on Typhon, that would require her having
been on Urth prior to the building of the _Whorl_. There is no textual
evidence in the Sun Cycle to support the inhumi having been on Urth that I
am aware of. The list of characters in EXODUS specifically states that
Quetzal was "native to Green". How could she have gone form Urth to Green to
give birth a thousand years later? (The interval between Typhon and
Severian.)

If you want to use the Ushas is Blue/Green theory to cover the problem of
spatial distance, then you run into a temporal problem. The time between
antediluvian Typhon and the Blue that Horn migrated to is too vast to have
been bridged by the lifespans of Quetzal and his mother. For the Neighbors
to have evolved on postdiluvian Urth, for their civilization to rise and
fall (both on Blue and Green), would have taken tens of thousands of years,
if not longer.

And the future that Sev bought, at the expense of millions of lives, would
seem to have been an epic boondoggle. Not to mention that there isn't a
Green Man to be seen. And Silk, the virtual saint, thought so highly of the
Increate/Outsider's new world that he packed up his things and left for
greener pastures.

-Roy

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:31:36 +0000

and Roy correctly (qualifiedly) asserted:
> There is no textual
> am aware of.

Crush interjects:
Don's pointer and Roy's assertion reminded me of another pointer to Pas as
the serpent Ladon:
Typhon/Pas is variously identified with King Midas who according to Graves
was originally a Sun god.

-- Crush

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 01:31:37 +0000

At 02:51 PM 9/5/2003, you wrote:

And Silk, the virtual saint, thought so highly of the
>Increate/Outsider's new world that he packed up his things and left for

With the rest of this post I agree, in the main. But I think Silk left 
because "mission accomplished." And this, perhaps, is how the Narrator is 
equivalent to the Short Sun: He shines briefly, long enough to set a number 
of things in motion.

Nutria

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