# Typhon and Quetzal *The Urth list — 5 messages, 4 voices, 05 Sep 2003* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### James Wynn *05 Sep 2003, 01:59* > Yes, but Quetzal is the only inhumu who is a Sun archetype, Dionysus. How can you say that? You are the one that argued (successfully IMO) that Silk is a clone of Typhon! If Silk parallels Apollo (one of the more indisputable parallels with him prophecing at the Sun St. mantaeon and all) then Pas is a Sun archetype too. Actually he's the ultimate Sun parallel because as a module/interface of Mainframe he is the Long Sun itself. Are you partial to Quetzal being Ladon because it fits so nicely with the Tree in the Garden? Regardless of what the comparitive mythology references say, Ladon and the Eden serpent are patently not the same characters (unless one says that Atlas and or Heracles is Jesus, but that would undermine the comparitive arguement). I think it would be obvious to Wolfe that this is so, as soon as he tried (as surely occurred to him) to draw the connection between the two. Ladon *guards* the fruit of the Hesperides, but the Eden serpent enticed humanity to eat of it. Or to use Quetzal's story, the cobra *wanted* the man and woman to climb his Tree. I know, I know. There's an astromical connection. But I'm talking about the context of the stories. Anyway, the inhumi are the fabled Pajaro Cu, which was created without feathers (that is, without personality), and took the feathers from the other creatures around him. You seem to be suggesting that they *do* come with personalities. On top of this, is Wolfe's stated claim that Typhon did not know about the inhumi (granted that I believe Wolfe lies, but not in so blatently). Finally, associating Quetzal via cloning is overly complex. Quetzal could just as well become another Silk by feeding on him (which I'm convinced he did). If you are convinced that Quetzal is to be thematically *identified* with Typhon/Pas rather that "merely" associated with him (as Moses and Alexander the Great are associated), I'd be curious to know what are your other reasons for this. I think identifying Ladon with Pas is so much cleaner. BTW if you can explain how Severian and Typhon can be clones and yet look so different -- ideally if you can name some textual suggestion that it is possible --it would be helpful to your Typhon-Severian theory, and would make me extremely receptive to it. But mythopoetically speaking, shouldn't Severian and Typhon be brothers? Cloning would make them the same person, or father and son, as I understand Wolfe's POV on it. Unless Typhon is a fellow clone. -- Crush --- ### Lisa Schaffer-Doggett *05 Sep 2003, 07:17 · follows James Wynn* >> On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 06:59 PM, James Wynn wrote: >> Anyway, the inhumi are the fabled Pajaro Cu, which was created >> without >> feathers (that is, without personality), and took the feathers from the >> other creatures around him. You seem to be suggesting that they *do* >> come >> with personalities. On top of this, is Wolfe's stated claim that >> Typhon did >> not know about the inhumi (granted that I believe Wolfe lies, but not >> in so >> blatently). If Silk and Typhon are the same it would only be necessary for Quetzal's mother (or do I have the morphology wrong?) to have fed on Silk. Or his mother could have fed on Typhon without his knowledge. This also handily explains how Quetzal knows so much about Typhon. Still there is the resolution of Quetzal's age vs. Silk. A problem for sure. > Finally, associating Quetzal via cloning is overly complex. Quetzal > could > just as well become another Silk by feeding on him (which I'm > convinced he > did). Wouldn't this still be the equivalent of his being "born" from the blood of Typhon? That actually solves the first problem. > If you are convinced that Quetzal is to be thematically *identified* > with Typhon/Pas rather that "merely" associated with him (as Moses and > Alexander the Great are associated), I'd be curious to know what are > your > other reasons for this. I think identifying Ladon with Pas is so much > cleaner. See above. Thematically Pas and Quetzal are the same. Pas is a download of Typhon. Quetzal is a download (according to your theory) of Silk. Silk is Typhon (redeemed). > BTW if you can explain how Severian and Typhon can be clones and yet > look so > different -- ideally if you can name some textual suggestion that it is > possible --it would be helpful to your Typhon-Severian theory, and > would > make me extremely receptive to it. But mythopoetically speaking, > shouldn't > Severian and Typhon be brothers? Cloning would make them the same > person, or > father and son, as I understand Wolfe's POV on it. Unless Typhon is a > fellow clone. I think we have a misunderstanding here. I believe Typhon is the father of Ymar and Severian is Ymar's clone. Thus Typhon is Sev's father. Silk is a clone of Typhon, so genetically they're twins, but chronologically and biblically (to borrow from Nutria) they are father and son. So Silk is Typhon's "son" and Sev is Typhon's "son" making them brothers, but genetically Silk is Typhon and Sev is Ymar so they are also father and son. Whew! I see why GW hid this. Prosaically it is awkward. Poetically however I think it is beautiful. regards Don --- ### Roy C. Lackey *05 Sep 2003, 19:51 · follows Lisa Schaffer-Doggett* > Don wrote: > If Silk and Typhon are the same it would only be necessary for > Quetzal's mother (or do I have the morphology wrong?) to have fed on > Silk. Or his mother could have fed on Typhon without his knowledge. > This also handily explains how Quetzal knows so much about Typhon. > Still there is the resolution of Quetzal's age vs. Silk. A problem for > sure. An insurmountable problem. Quetzal had been Prolocutor for more than thirty years, and it would have taken him years more to reach that position. Silk was 23 years old. It's not physically possible for Quetzal's mother to have fed on Silk. As for Quetzal's mother having fed on Typhon, that would require her having been on Urth prior to the building of the _Whorl_. There is no textual evidence in the Sun Cycle to support the inhumi having been on Urth that I am aware of. The list of characters in EXODUS specifically states that Quetzal was "native to Green". How could she have gone form Urth to Green to give birth a thousand years later? (The interval between Typhon and Severian.) If you want to use the Ushas is Blue/Green theory to cover the problem of spatial distance, then you run into a temporal problem. The time between antediluvian Typhon and the Blue that Horn migrated to is too vast to have been bridged by the lifespans of Quetzal and his mother. For the Neighbors to have evolved on postdiluvian Urth, for their civilization to rise and fall (both on Blue and Green), would have taken tens of thousands of years, if not longer. And the future that Sev bought, at the expense of millions of lives, would seem to have been an epic boondoggle. Not to mention that there isn't a Green Man to be seen. And Silk, the virtual saint, thought so highly of the Increate/Outsider's new world that he packed up his things and left for greener pastures. -Roy --- ### James Wynn *05 Sep 2003, 20:31 · follows Roy C. Lackey* Don said: > Yes, but Quetzal is the only inhumu who is a Sun archetype, Dionysus. and Roy correctly (qualifiedly) asserted: > There is no textual > evidence in the Sun Cycle to support the inhumi having been on Urth that I > am aware of. Crush interjects: Don's pointer and Roy's assertion reminded me of another pointer to Pas as the serpent Ladon: Typhon/Pas is variously identified with King Midas who according to Graves was originally a Sun god. -- Crush --- ### James Jordan *06 Sep 2003, 01:31 · follows James Wynn* At 02:51 PM 9/5/2003, you wrote: And Silk, the virtual saint, thought so highly of the > Increate/Outsider's new world that he packed up his things and left for > greener pastures. > > -Roy With the rest of this post I agree, in the main. But I think Silk left because "mission accomplished." And this, perhaps, is how the Narrator is equivalent to the Short Sun: He shines briefly, long enough to set a number of things in motion. Nutria ---