{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4201", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4201, "subject": "Duh! Part 2.", "messages": 18, "voices": 9, "first": "2003-09-05T16:02:17+00:00", "last": "2003-09-08T16:42:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-09-05T16:02:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, so ...\n\nSeverian is the New Sun. So is the Conciliator. And they turn out to be, in \nsome sense, the same person.\n\nSilk is the Long Sun. So is Pas. And they turn out to be, in some sense, the \nsame person.\n\nHorn is the Short Sun. So is Silk. And they turn out to be, in some sense, \nthe same person.\n\nH'mmmmm........\n\nWhat two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old Sun?\n\n(I think I know but I want to see if the massmind comes to the same \nconclusion.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-09-05T18:46:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are\nthe Old Sun? (I think I know but I want to see if the massmind>\ncomes to the same conclusion.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm. Well Typhon \"goes to sleep\" just after the Old Sun starts to seriously\ndim and dies for good and all just before Severian becomes Autarch. But who\nis the other Typhon I couldn't really say, unless you mean Silk again who is\n\"cast down\" by Auk.\n\nCrush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Veyera", "address": "teflon93 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-09-06T23:07:39+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old Sun?:\n\nInteresting question. I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather than\nAbaia, who is unseen).\n\nTeflon93\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:katbarx at hotmail.com]\nSent: Friday, September 05, 2003 9:02 AM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Duh! Part 2.\n\n\nOkay, so ...\n\nSeverian is the New Sun. So is the Conciliator. And they turn out to be, in\nsome sense, the same person.\n\nSilk is the Long Sun. So is Pas. And they turn out to be, in some sense, the\nsame person.\n\nHorn is the Short Sun. So is Silk. And they turn out to be, in some sense,\nthe same person.\n\nH'mmmmm........\n\nWhat two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old Sun?\n\n(I think I know but I want to see if the massmind comes to the same\nconclusion.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-06T23:26:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 04:07 PM, Jeff Veyera wrote:\n:What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old \nSun?:\n\nInteresting question. I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather \nthan\nAbaia, who is unseen)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which brings me to a bizarre question, but not irrelevant: Could \nBaldanders be Abaia? This is not as ridiculous as it first seems. \nUnder the tutelage of the Undines it is possible he could gain access \nto the corridors of time and he is growing unchecked. In addition, the \nNaviscaput in the Wonders of Earth and Sky is a big oily mechanical \ndevice, very Baldanders-esq.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-09-07T03:03:52+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting question. I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather than\nAbaia, who is unseen)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is my belief, too." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-09-07T03:10:55+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Blattid quoted and wrote:\nInteresting question. I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather than\nAbaia, who is unseen)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is my belief, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm. This (?) answers the question:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old Sun?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon and Baldanders are the same person?\n\nI must have slept through that.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-09-07T03:19:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Teflon and Blattid agree:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting question. I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather than\nAbaia, who is unseen)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is my belief, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "oookay. This will surely be good. While both T. and B. are cast from their\ntowers by Severian, how oh how are they the same person? Or do you mean only\nthematically?\n\nI'm still working my way thru the Short Sun; is there any explanation of\nwhat happened to Typhon's kids? Skylla presumably became the famous monster\ntyrant of Urth. If Tartaros has a identity on Urth it is surely Erebus. What\nhappened to Hieros?\n\n -- Crush." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-09-07T10:40:48+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Baldanders was a potential future that didn't pan out, quite different from \nTyphon. The Typhon identification aside, I think this doesn't make him a \nvery good symbol for the Old Sun.\n\nYou could say that Typhon is the Old Sun, but ultimately I don't think this \nis the case either; stars/suns are angelic, like Tzadkiel and Severian. If \nyou're looking for a character that embodies the Old Sun then you need to \nlook for a Vishnu to Severian's Shiva, and I am not so sure Typhon \nqualifies. But I may be making absolutely no sense at all here.\n\nA side note since it doesn't seem worth a whole second post: Wolfe's comment \nto Josh Geller does make a lot of sense, but it could make sense in a few \ndifferent ways. Do you have any more specific idea why Wolfe thought it was \nprobably a good thing that he didn't read this list? As I said, it makes \ngood sense regardless, but I am curious as to whether there was a more \nspecific context.\n\n-- Civet" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Blattid quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Interesting question. I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather \nthan\nAbaia, who is unseen)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That is my belief, too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmmm. This (?) answers the question:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old Sun?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon and Baldanders are the same person?\n\nI must have slept through that.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-09-07T13:52:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Civet asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you have any more specific idea why Wolfe thought it was\nprobably a good thing that he didn't read this list? As I said, it makes\ngood sense regardless, but I am curious as to whether there was a more\nspecific context." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was in response to Josh telling him that the current discussion (a year\nago) was whether Hyacinth was a male chem. Since I suggested that theory, I\nremember this well. Although I no longer hold that theory, I found Wolfe's\nanswer enigmatic - I still do. Josh does not.\n\nAs for Typhon's willingness to submit to the same procedure as Mr. Million's\nOriginal (Mr. M.O.) there are some big differences between Typhon and Mr\nM.O.\nMr. Million was considered by Aunt Jeanine AND Mr. Million to be *only* a\nsimulation. She did not at first even consider him to be a candidate for one\nof \"the five\". Only after consideration did she say \"maybe he was counting\nthe simulation\". Mr. M.O. was a mad scientist. Typhon was an meglo-maniac.\n\nTyphon was perfectly fine with a simulation of himself ruling where he could\nnot be physically present. He even had a sense of humor about it. But the\nidea that he would willingly have himself destroyed so an \"equivalent\" could\ntake his place seems inconceivable to me.\n\nRoy,\nWould you be willing to undergo surgery if you were told that you would not\nsurvive the operation \"but this little boy here will be receiving all your\nmemories\" (like Thecla did with Severian only without Sev's memories)?\n\nMantis,\nI reeeally like that name tag on a dog analogy. It perfectly expresses the\ndifference between simulated and human consciousness, and supports my\npersonal reasons for believing that computer simulation programs will never\nbe truely conscious. That fact that we (generally) would presume that a\nconcious program would have no problem with being downloaded to a second\nserver and the copy on the first server destroyed shows that we all\nrecognize the difference.\n\nCrush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Palumbo", "address": "enpalumb at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-07T20:22:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\nJust dipping in for a moment, but Typhon and Baldanders are the same\nperson thematically,\nas Crush suggests, in that they are both the two clearest representatives\nof the Ogre-Tyrant of the status quo that it is the task of the hero as\nwarrior to overthrow.  This comes from Campbell's THE HERO WITH A\nTHOUSAND FACES, of course, and The Book of the New Sun overall (and\nechoed in Urth of the New Sun) is clearly Wolfe's treatment of\nCampbell's monomyth, the adventure of the hero, just as the Book of the\nLog Sun in itself is his treatment of the generational star ship\nstory.\n\n--Don\n\nAt 10:19 PM 9/6/03 -0500, James Wynn wrote:\nTeflon and Blattid agree:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting question.  I tend to think Typhon and\nBaldanders (rather than\nAbaia, who is unseen)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is my belief, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "oookay. This will surely be good. While both T. and B. are cast from\ntheir\ntowers by Severian, how oh how are they the same person? Or do you mean\nonly\nthematically?\n\nI'm still working my way thru the Short Sun; is there any explanation\nof\nwhat happened to Typhon's kids? Skylla presumably became the famous\nmonster\ntyrant of Urth. If Tartaros has a identity on Urth it is surely Erebus.\nWhat\nhappened to Hieros?\n\n -- Crush." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.urth.net/\nTo unsubscribe: send \"unsubscribe\" to urth-request at urth.net\n\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-07T19:07:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sunday, September 7, 2003, at 01:22 PM, Don Palumbo wrote:\nJust dipping in for a moment, but Typhon and Baldanders are the same \nperson thematically,\nas Crush suggests, in that they are both the two clearest \nrepresentatives of the Ogre-Tyrant of the status quo that it is the \ntask of the hero as warrior to overthrow.  This comes from Campbell's \nTHE HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES, of course, and The Book of the New Sun \noverall (and echoed in Urth of the New Sun) is clearly Wolfe's \ntreatment of Campbell's monomyth, the adventure of the hero, just as \nthe Book of the Log Sun in itself is his treatment of the generational \nstar ship story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don chimes in (am I the real Don, or an eidolon?):\n\nWhile I don't doubt this is true - and isn't Abaia as the Naviscaput an \nogre - I think it is a mistake to identify tBotNS solely as a reaction \nto Campbell. I think an equal if not greater share is devoted to \nGraves (I Claudius, King Jesus, and the White Goddess especially) and \nthere is a huge debt to Borges as well (questions of identity and \ntime). There is also a major Rosicrucian (I think) aspect to these \nbooks, and tBotLS is in some ways a cannibalization of themes and ideas \nexplored in the Soldier novels, which themselves owe a debt to \nHerodotus and Graves. The generational star ship aspect is imo the \nleast significant part, a smokescreen so to speak.\n\nThis reminds me of a comment by Stephen King about his potentially \ngreat but hugely dissapointing Dark Tower series. He said that his \ngoal was to write the longest single story ever. I say he's wasting \npaper (in more ways than one) because in twelve volumes GW has \ncompressed twenty four to thirty six volumes of story to be puzzled out." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-09-07T20:02:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:52 AM 9/7/2003, Crush wrote:\nRoy,\nWould you be willing to undergo surgery if you were told that you would not\nsurvive the operation \"but this little boy here will be receiving all your\nmemories\" (like Thecla did with Severian only without Sev's memories)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not Roy, but my understanding of what is being suggested is that \nconsciousness, not memories, would be downloaded." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mantis,\nI reeeally like that name tag on a dog analogy. It perfectly expresses the\ndifference between simulated and human consciousness, and supports my\npersonal reasons for believing that computer simulation programs will never\nbe truely conscious. That fact that we (generally) would presume that a\nconcious program would have no problem with being downloaded to a second\nserver and the copy on the first server destroyed shows that we all\nrecognize the difference." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is also the problem with reincarnation/metempsychosis. This \ntransference is soul is nothing different than if an animal at my decaying \nbody and my body transferred into him. There's nothing of what makes me ME \nleft. The difference between reincarnation and personal annihiliation is \nmerely a sleight-of-hand.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-09-07T23:08:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Crush wrote:\nRoy,\nWould you be willing to undergo surgery if you were told that you would\nnot\nsurvive the operation \"but this little boy here will be receiving all\nyour\nmemories\" (like Thecla did with Severian only without Sev's memories)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria responded:\nI'm not Roy, but my understanding of what is being suggested is that\nconsciousness, not memories, would be downloaded." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush reponds:\nI'm curious what in your opinion the actual difference would be in the\nprocedure Roy has proposed?\n\nTransferring a soul would be something only God could do. Doctors would just\ntransfer the memories as a complete template. When Thecla's memories are\nabsorbed by Severian, she comes to life inside him. Rose's \"soul\" (in an\nAnimist/Spiritualist/Judeo/Christian/Muslim/Hindu/traditional-Buddhist\nsense) does not continue to exists in Marble. Only her memories and the\nconclusions she held based on those memories (yet her POV was still subject\nto evolution within Marble). Based on an answer Wolfe gave to a question I\nposed during the scifi.com online chat, Wolfe seems to (to a significant\nextent anyway) equate identity with memory.\n\nSomething I forgot to mention is that Lemur did not consider Typhon or his\nfamily to have in any real way \"lived on\" in Mainframe. He called them\n\"ghosts\" (ironic considering his own name) -- spectres of actual persons\nlong dead. And when he discovered that his bio body had died, he was stunned\nand horrified. Clearly Lemur did not consider his \"consciousness\"\ncompletely transferred to a chem to be valid -- in his mind he had become a\n\"ghost\" or \"simulation\" (in Fifth Head terms).\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Veyera", "address": "teflon93 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-09-08T00:29:26+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush notes:\n\n: While both T. and B. are cast from their towers by Severian, how oh how\nare they the same person? Or do you mean only\nthematically?:\n\nTeflon responds:\n\nSpeaking for myself, I meant Typhon and Baldanders are the same\nthematically. Both represent regressive elements trying to alter humanity's\nfuture and prevent the coming of the New Sun. Both employ ancient high\ntechnology to do this. Both have been willingly physically altered to\naccomplish their missions. Both are driven by a lust for power and employ\ndiabolical genius to achieve their ends. Both are master manipulators.\n\nTo me, anyway, they typify the world of the Old Sun.\n\nTeflon93\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at hotpop.com]\nSent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 8:19 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2.\n\n\nTeflon and Blattid agree:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting question. I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather than\nAbaia, who is unseen)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is my belief, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "oookay. This will surely be good. While both T. and B. are cast from their\ntowers by Severian, how oh how are they the same person? Or do you mean only\nthematically?\n\nI'm still working my way thru the Short Sun; is there any explanation of\nwhat happened to Typhon's kids? Skylla presumably became the famous monster\ntyrant of Urth. If Tartaros has a identity on Urth it is surely Erebus. What\nhappened to Hieros?\n\n -- Crush." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-08T02:11:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sunday, September 7, 2003, at 01:02 PM, James Jordan wrote:\n\nThis is also the problem with reincarnation/metempsychosis. This \ntransference is soul is nothing different than if an animal at my \ndecaying body and my body transferred into him. There's nothing of \nwhat makes me ME left. The difference between reincarnation and \npersonal annihiliation is merely a sleight-of-hand." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And yet this is exactly what happens when the Alzabo eats Severa or \nSeverian eats the forebrain of Appian. This is also what happens with \nthe Inhumi when they feed on humans or (if the theory is correct) to \nthe trees on Blue when they devour things. In UotNS Barbatus (I think) \nmakes the analogy of a poem written on a wall or on a piece of paper \n(or some such, you get the idea) Which is the real poem or the real \nsoul? Typhon? Silk? Pas? Severian the original, or Severian the \neidolon? Or is it the Severian in the mausoleum? This is the biggest \nquestion in these books, and a deliberately open one, though I'm sure \nGW has his opinion. As far as Typhon, there are practical reasons that \nhe can't transfer himself directly into a clone. Piaton is his \nstrongest slave, the only one who could survive the head transplant, so \nthat's out. Transfering his brain won't work because the neural \nconnections are too complicated. This is all given in Sword of the \nLictor. Copying himself into a program and transfering himself into a \nclone on Urth gives him two Typhons. No good. He wouldn't share power \neven with himself. This is what I think. Silk was raised to be \noccupied by Pas and rule until Typhon the immortal (so he thought) \ncould reorganize his empire and quietly dispose of him and take over \nhis primitively equipped colonies, hence the lack of stellar weapons on \nthe Whorl. What he didn't count on, on Urth or the Whorl, was the \nrebellion of his family disrupting these plans. And he certainly \ndidn't count on the intervention of the Outsider in the life of his \nlittle uberclone. Didn't GW recently give a speech saying that no one \nis beyond redemption? I truly believe that is one of the strongest \nstreams and themes running through this cycle.\n\nDon\nsteps off his box" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-09-08T02:34:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And yet this is exactly what happens when the Alzabo eats Severa or\nSeverian eats the forebrain of Appian. This is also what happens with\nthe Inhumi when they feed on humans or (if the theory is correct) to\nthe trees on Blue when they devour things. In UotNS Barbatus (I think)\nmakes the analogy of a poem written on a wall or on a piece of paper\n(or some such, you get the idea)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For me, one of the ummm metaphysical or whatever underpinnings of the Sun\nbooks is that \"soul\" will take any opportunity it can to take root and grow,\npretty much regardless of the soil or seed. So the chems definitely have\nsouls, but we are not to think of their programmers as being in any respect\nCreators. Rather, it is divine Grace, filling the universe to bursting\npoint, which latches on to these profane efforts and sanctifies them. Any\nstriving towards being \"real people\" brings huge & fast results.\n\nBabbie, Oreb, even (perhaps) Silkhorn's staff, even the soul-predating\ninhumi, especially under the influence of Silkhorn's charisma, but even\nwithout it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-09-08T13:31:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don P. notes that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon and Baldanders are ... the two clearest representatives of the \nOgre-Tyrant of the status quo that it is the task of the hero as warrior\nto overthrow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I did not have Campbellian hero-myth terminology in mind, this is\nvery much the kind of thing I was thinking of. I am not totally satisfied \nwith\nit, because the \"same person\" business is more direct in all other cases.\n\nThe other possibility that had occurred to me, but is even more \nunsatisfactory\nfor other reasons, is that the Old Sun is Typhon ... and Pas." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Palumbo", "address": "enpalumb at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-08T16:42:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, for sure!\n\n--Don" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:07 PM 9/7/03 -0700, Lisa Schaffer-Doggett wrote:\nOn Sunday, September 7, 2003, at 01:22 PM, Don Palumbo wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just dipping in for a moment, but Typhon and Baldanders are the same \nperson thematically,\nas Crush suggests, in that they are both the two clearest representatives \nof the Ogre-Tyrant of the status quo that it is the task of the hero as \nwarrior to overthrow. This comes from Campbell's THE HERO WITH A \nTHOUSAND FACES, of course, and The Book of the New Sun overall (and \nechoed in Urth of the New Sun) is clearly Wolfe's treatment of Campbell's \nmonomyth, the adventure of the hero, just as the Book of the Log Sun in \nitself is his treatment of the generational star ship story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don chimes in (am I the real Don, or an eidolon?):\n\nWhile I don't doubt this is true - and isn't Abaia as the Naviscaput an \nogre - I think it is a mistake to identify tBotNS solely as a reaction to \nCampbell. I think an equal if not greater share is devoted to Graves (I \nClaudius, King Jesus, and the White Goddess especially) and there is a \nhuge debt to Borges as well (questions of identity and time). There is \nalso a major Rosicrucian (I think) aspect to these books, and tBotLS is in \nsome ways a cannibalization of themes and ideas explored in the Soldier \nnovels, which themselves owe a debt to Herodotus and Graves. The \ngenerational star ship aspect is imo the least significant part, a \nsmokescreen so to speak.\n\nThis reminds me of a comment by Stephen King about his potentially great \nbut hugely dissapointing Dark Tower series. He said that his goal was to \nwrite the longest single story ever. I say he's wasting paper (in more \nways than one) because in twelve volumes GW has compressed twenty four to \nthirty six volumes of story to be puzzled out.\n\n\n--" } ] } ] }