Subject: (urth) Duh! Part 2.

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <katbarx at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 16:02:17 +0000

Okay, so ...

Severian is the New Sun. So is the Conciliator. And they turn out to be, in 
some sense, the same person.

Silk is the Long Sun. So is Pas. And they turn out to be, in some sense, the 
same person.

Horn is the Short Sun. So is Silk. And they turn out to be, in some sense, 
the same person.

H'mmmmm........

What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old Sun?

(I think I know but I want to see if the massmind comes to the same 
conclusion.)

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:46:12 +0000

> What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are
> the Old Sun? (I think I know but I want to see if the massmind>
> comes to the same conclusion.)

Hmm. Well Typhon "goes to sleep" just after the Old Sun starts to seriously
dim and dies for good and all just before Severian becomes Autarch. But who
is the other Typhon I couldn't really say, unless you mean Silk again who is
"cast down"  by Auk.

Crush

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From: Jeff Veyera <teflon93 at cox.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 23:07:39 +0000

Interesting question.  I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather than
Abaia, who is unseen).

Teflon93

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:katbarx at hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 9:02 AM
To: urth at urth.net
Subject: (urth) Duh! Part 2.

Okay, so ...

H'mmmmm........

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From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 23:26:13 +0000

On Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 04:07 PM, Jeff Veyera wrote:

> :What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old 
> Sun?:
>

Which brings me to a bizarre question, but not irrelevant:   Could 
Baldanders be Abaia?  This is not as ridiculous as it first seems.  
Under the tutelage of the Undines it is possible he could gain access 
to the corridors of time and he is growing unchecked.  In addition, the 
Naviscaput in the Wonders of Earth and Sky is a big oily mechanical 
device, very Baldanders-esq.

Don

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <katbarx at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 03:03:52 +0000

>Interesting question.  I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather than

That is my belief, too.

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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 03:10:55 +0000

>What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old Sun?

Typhon and Baldanders are the same person?

I must have slept through that.

=mantis=

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 03:19:11 +0000

> >Interesting question.  I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather than

oookay. This will surely be good. While both T. and B. are cast from their
towers by Severian, how oh how are they the same person? Or do you mean only
thematically?

I'm still working my way thru the Short Sun; is there any explanation of
what happened to Typhon's kids? Skylla presumably became the famous monster
tyrant of Urth. If Tartaros has a identity on Urth it is surely Erebus. What
happened to Hieros?

 -- Crush.

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 10:40:48 +0000

Baldanders was a potential future that didn't pan out, quite different from 
Typhon. The Typhon identification aside, I think this doesn't make him a 
very good symbol for the Old Sun.

You could say that Typhon is the Old Sun, but ultimately I don't think this 
is the case either; stars/suns are angelic, like Tzadkiel and Severian. If 
you're looking for a character that embodies the Old Sun then you need to 
look for a Vishnu to Severian's Shiva, and I am not so sure Typhon 
qualifies. But I may be making absolutely no sense at all here.

A side note since it doesn't seem worth a whole second post: Wolfe's comment 
to Josh Geller does make a lot of sense, but it could make sense in a few 
different ways. Do you have any more specific idea why Wolfe thought it was 
probably a good thing that he didn't read this list? As I said, it makes 
good sense regardless, but I am curious as to whether there was a more 
specific context.

-- Civet

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 13:52:26 +0000

Civet asked:
> Do you have any more specific idea why Wolfe thought it was

It was in response to Josh telling him that the current discussion (a year
ago) was whether Hyacinth was a male chem. Since I suggested that theory, I
remember this well. Although I no longer hold that theory, I found Wolfe's
answer enigmatic - I still do. Josh does not.

As for Typhon's willingness to submit to the same procedure as Mr. Million's
Original (Mr. M.O.) there are some big differences between Typhon and Mr
M.O.
Mr. Million was considered by Aunt Jeanine AND Mr. Million to be *only* a
simulation. She did not at first even consider him to be a candidate for one
of "the five". Only after consideration did she say "maybe he was counting
the simulation". Mr. M.O. was a mad scientist. Typhon was an meglo-maniac.

Typhon was perfectly fine with a simulation of himself ruling where he could
not be physically present. He even had a sense of humor about it. But the
idea that he would willingly have himself destroyed so an "equivalent" could
take his place seems inconceivable to me.

Roy,
Would you be willing to undergo surgery if you were told that you would not
survive the operation "but this little boy here will be receiving all your
memories" (like Thecla did with Severian only without Sev's memories)?

Mantis,
I reeeally like that name tag on a dog analogy. It perfectly expresses the
difference between simulated and human consciousness, and supports my
personal reasons for believing that computer simulation programs will never
be truely conscious. That fact that we (generally) would presume that a
concious program would have no problem with being downloaded to a second
server and the copy on the first server destroyed shows that we all
recognize the difference.

Crush

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From: Don Palumbo <enpalumb at earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:22:19 +0000

<html>
Just dipping in for a moment, but Typhon and Baldanders are the same
person thematically,
as Crush suggests, in that they are both the two clearest representatives
of the Ogre-Tyrant of the status quo that it is the task of the hero as
warrior to overthrow.  This comes from Campbell's THE HERO WITH A
THOUSAND FACES, of course, and The Book of the New Sun overall (and
echoed in Urth of the New Sun) is clearly Wolfe's treatment of
Campbell's monomyth, the adventure of the hero, just as the Book of the
Log Sun in itself is his treatment of the generational star ship
story.

--Don

At 10:19 PM 9/6/03 -0500, James Wynn wrote:
> >Interesting question.  I tend to think Typhon and
Baldanders (rather than

oookay. This will surely be good. While both T. and B. are cast from
their
towers by Severian, how oh how are they the same person? Or do you mean
only
thematically?

I'm still working my way thru the Short Sun; is there any explanation
of
what happened to Typhon's kids? Skylla presumably became the famous
monster
tyrant of Urth. If Tartaros has a identity on Urth it is surely Erebus.
What
happened to Hieros?

 -- Crush.

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From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 19:07:53 +0000

On Sunday, September 7, 2003, at 01:22 PM, Don Palumbo wrote:

> as Crush suggests, in that they are both the two clearest 
> representatives of the Ogre-Tyrant of the status quo that it is the 
> task of the hero as warrior to overthrow.  This comes from Campbell's 
> THE HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES, of course, and The Book of the New Sun 
> overall (and echoed in Urth of the New Sun) is clearly Wolfe's 
> treatment of Campbell's monomyth, the adventure of the hero, just as 
> the Book of the Log Sun in itself is his treatment of the generational 
> star ship story.
>

Don chimes in (am I the real Don, or an eidolon?):

While I don't doubt this is true - and isn't Abaia as the Naviscaput an 
ogre - I think it is a mistake to identify tBotNS solely as a reaction 
to Campbell.  I think an equal if not greater share is devoted to 
Graves (I Claudius, King Jesus, and the White Goddess especially) and 
there is a huge debt to Borges as well (questions of identity and 
time).  There is also a major Rosicrucian (I think) aspect to these 
books, and tBotLS is in some ways a cannibalization of themes and ideas 
explored in the Soldier novels, which themselves owe a debt to 
Herodotus and Graves.  The generational star ship aspect is imo the 
least significant part, a smokescreen so to speak.

This reminds me of a comment by Stephen King about his potentially 
great but hugely dissapointing Dark Tower series.  He said that his 
goal was to write the longest single story ever.  I say he's wasting 
paper (in more ways than one) because in twelve volumes GW has 
compressed twenty four to thirty six volumes of story to be puzzled out.

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:02:52 +0000

>memories" (like Thecla did with Severian only without Sev's memories)?

I'm not Roy, but my understanding of what is being suggested is that 
consciousness, not memories, would be downloaded.

>recognize the difference.

This is also the problem with reincarnation/metempsychosis. This 
transference is soul is nothing different than if an animal at my decaying 
body and my body transferred into him. There's nothing of what makes me ME 
left. The difference between reincarnation and personal annihiliation is 
merely a sleight-of-hand.

Nutria

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 23:08:50 +0000

> >Crush wrote:

>Nutria responded:

Crush reponds:
I'm curious what in your opinion the actual difference would be in the
procedure Roy has proposed?

Transferring a soul would be something only God could do. Doctors would just
transfer the memories as a complete template. When Thecla's memories are
absorbed by Severian, she comes to life inside him. Rose's "soul" (in an
Animist/Spiritualist/Judeo/Christian/Muslim/Hindu/traditional-Buddhist
sense) does not continue to exists in Marble. Only her memories and the
conclusions she held based on those memories (yet her POV was still subject
to evolution within Marble). Based on an answer Wolfe gave to a question I
posed during the scifi.com online chat, Wolfe seems to (to a significant
extent anyway) equate identity with memory.

Something I forgot to mention is that Lemur did not consider Typhon or his
family to have in any real way "lived on" in Mainframe. He called them
"ghosts" (ironic considering his own name) -- spectres of actual persons
long dead. And when he discovered that his bio body had died, he was stunned
and horrified. Clearly  Lemur did not consider his "consciousness"
completely transferred to a chem to be valid -- in his mind he had become a
"ghost" or "simulation" (in Fifth Head terms).

-- Crush

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From: Jeff Veyera <teflon93 at cox.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 00:29:26 +0000

Crush notes:

: While both T. and B. are cast from their towers by Severian, how oh how
are they the same person? Or do you mean only
thematically?:

Teflon responds:

Speaking for myself, I meant Typhon and Baldanders are the same
thematically.  Both represent regressive elements trying to alter humanity's
future and prevent the coming of the New Sun.  Both employ ancient high
technology to do this.  Both have been willingly physically altered to
accomplish their missions.  Both are driven by a lust for power and employ
diabolical genius to achieve their ends.  Both are master manipulators.

To me, anyway, they typify the world of the Old Sun.

Teflon93

-----Original Message-----
From: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at hotpop.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 8:19 PM
To: urth at urth.net
Subject: Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2.

 -- Crush.

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From: Don Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 02:11:05 +0000

On Sunday, September 7, 2003, at 01:02 PM, James Jordan wrote:

> transference is soul is nothing different than if an animal at my 
> decaying body and my body transferred into him. There's nothing of 
> what makes me ME left. The difference between reincarnation and 
> personal annihiliation is merely a sleight-of-hand.
>
>

And yet this is exactly what happens when the Alzabo eats Severa or 
Severian eats the forebrain of Appian.  This is also what happens with 
the Inhumi when they feed on humans or (if the theory is correct)  to 
the trees on Blue when they devour things.  In UotNS Barbatus (I think) 
makes the analogy of a poem written on a wall or on a piece of paper 
(or some such, you get the idea)   Which is the real poem or the real 
soul?  Typhon?  Silk? Pas?  Severian the original, or Severian the 
eidolon?  Or is it the Severian in the mausoleum?  This is the biggest 
question in these books, and a deliberately open one, though I'm sure 
GW has his opinion.  As far as Typhon, there are practical reasons that 
he can't transfer himself directly into a clone.  Piaton is his 
strongest slave, the only one who could survive the head transplant, so 
that's out.  Transfering his brain won't work because the neural 
connections are too complicated.  This is all given in Sword of the 
Lictor.  Copying himself into a program and transfering himself into a 
clone on Urth gives him two Typhons.  No good.  He wouldn't share power 
even with himself.  This is what I think.  Silk was raised to be 
occupied by Pas and rule until Typhon the immortal (so he thought) 
could reorganize his empire and quietly dispose of him and take over 
his primitively equipped colonies, hence the lack of stellar weapons on 
the Whorl.  What he didn't count on, on Urth or the Whorl, was the 
rebellion of his family disrupting these plans.  And he certainly 
didn't count on the intervention of the Outsider in the life of his 
little uberclone.  Didn't GW recently give a speech saying that no one 
is beyond redemption?  I truly believe that is one of the strongest 
streams and themes running through this cycle.

Don
steps off his box

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From: Andrew Bollen <abollen at internode.on.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 02:34:17 +0000

> (or some such, you get the idea)

For me, one of the ummm metaphysical or whatever underpinnings of the Sun
books is that "soul" will take any opportunity it can to take root and grow,
pretty much regardless of the soil or seed. So the chems definitely have
souls, but we are not to think of their programmers as being in any respect
Creators. Rather, it is divine Grace, filling the universe to bursting
point, which latches on to these profane efforts and sanctifies them. Any
striving towards being "real people" brings huge & fast results.

Babbie, Oreb, even (perhaps) Silkhorn's staff, even the soul-predating
inhumi, especially under the influence of Silkhorn's charisma, but even
without it.

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <katbarx at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 13:31:23 +0000

Don P. notes that

>Typhon and Baldanders are ... the two clearest representatives of the 
>Ogre-Tyrant of the status quo that it is the task of the hero as warrior
>to overthrow.

While I did not have Campbellian hero-myth terminology in mind, this is
very much the kind of thing I was thinking of. I am not totally satisfied 
with
it, because the "same person" business is more direct in all other cases.

The other possibility that had occurred to me, but is even more 
unsatisfactory
for other reasons, is that the Old Sun is Typhon ... and Pas.

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From: Don Palumbo <enpalumb at earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 16:42:40 +0000

Well, for sure!

--Don

At 12:07 PM 9/7/03 -0700, Lisa Schaffer-Doggett wrote:

>>echoed in Urth of the New Sun) is clearly Wolfe's treatment of Campbell's 
>>monomyth, the adventure of the hero, just as the Book of the Log Sun in 
>>itself is his treatment of the generational star ship story.
>
>ogre - I think it is a mistake to identify tBotNS solely as a reaction to 
>Campbell.  I think an equal if not greater share is devoted to Graves (I 
>Claudius, King Jesus, and the White Goddess especially) and there is a 
>huge debt to Borges as well (questions of identity and time).  There is 
>also a major Rosicrucian (I think) aspect to these books, and tBotLS is in 
>some ways a cannibalization of themes and ideas explored in the Soldier 
>novels, which themselves owe a debt to Herodotus and Graves.  The 
>generational star ship aspect is imo the least significant part, a 
>smokescreen so to speak.
>
>This reminds me of a comment by Stephen King about his potentially great 
>but hugely dissapointing Dark Tower series.  He said that his goal was to 
>write the longest single story ever.  I say he's wasting paper (in more 
>ways than one) because in twelve volumes GW has compressed twenty four to 
>thirty six volumes of story to be puzzled out.
>
>
>--

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