# Duh! Part 2. *The Urth list — 18 messages, 9 voices, 05 Sep 2003* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *05 Sep 2003, 16:02* Okay, so ... Severian is the New Sun. So is the Conciliator. And they turn out to be, in some sense, the same person. Silk is the Long Sun. So is Pas. And they turn out to be, in some sense, the same person. Horn is the Short Sun. So is Silk. And they turn out to be, in some sense, the same person. H'mmmmm........ What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old Sun? (I think I know but I want to see if the massmind comes to the same conclusion.) --- ### James Wynn *05 Sep 2003, 18:46 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are > the Old Sun? (I think I know but I want to see if the massmind> > comes to the same conclusion.) Hmm. Well Typhon "goes to sleep" just after the Old Sun starts to seriously dim and dies for good and all just before Severian becomes Autarch. But who is the other Typhon I couldn't really say, unless you mean Silk again who is "cast down" by Auk. Crush --- ### Jeff Veyera *06 Sep 2003, 23:07 · follows James Wynn* :What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old Sun?: Interesting question. I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather than Abaia, who is unseen). Teflon93 -----Original Message----- From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:katbarx at hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 9:02 AM To: urth at urth.net Subject: (urth) Duh! Part 2. Okay, so ... Severian is the New Sun. So is the Conciliator. And they turn out to be, in some sense, the same person. Silk is the Long Sun. So is Pas. And they turn out to be, in some sense, the same person. Horn is the Short Sun. So is Silk. And they turn out to be, in some sense, the same person. H'mmmmm........ What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old Sun? (I think I know but I want to see if the massmind comes to the same conclusion.) --- ### Lisa Schaffer-Doggett *06 Sep 2003, 23:26 · follows Jeff Veyera* > On Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 04:07 PM, Jeff Veyera wrote: > :What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old > Sun?: > > Interesting question. I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather > than > Abaia, who is unseen). Which brings me to a bizarre question, but not irrelevant: Could Baldanders be Abaia? This is not as ridiculous as it first seems. Under the tutelage of the Undines it is possible he could gain access to the corridors of time and he is growing unchecked. In addition, the Naviscaput in the Wonders of Earth and Sky is a big oily mechanical device, very Baldanders-esq. Don --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *07 Sep 2003, 03:03 · follows Lisa Schaffer-Doggett* > Interesting question. I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather than > Abaia, who is unseen). That is my belief, too. --- ### Michael Andre-Driussi *07 Sep 2003, 03:10 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* >> Blattid quoted and wrote: >> Interesting question. I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather than >> Abaia, who is unseen). > That is my belief, too. Hmmm. This (?) answers the question: > What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old Sun? Typhon and Baldanders are the same person? I must have slept through that. =mantis= --- ### James Wynn *07 Sep 2003, 03:19 · follows Michael Andre-Driussi* Teflon and Blattid agree: >> Interesting question. I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather than >> Abaia, who is unseen). > That is my belief, too. oookay. This will surely be good. While both T. and B. are cast from their towers by Severian, how oh how are they the same person? Or do you mean only thematically? I'm still working my way thru the Short Sun; is there any explanation of what happened to Typhon's kids? Skylla presumably became the famous monster tyrant of Urth. If Tartaros has a identity on Urth it is surely Erebus. What happened to Hieros? -- Crush. --- ### Chris *07 Sep 2003, 10:40 · follows James Wynn* Baldanders was a potential future that didn't pan out, quite different from Typhon. The Typhon identification aside, I think this doesn't make him a very good symbol for the Old Sun. You could say that Typhon is the Old Sun, but ultimately I don't think this is the case either; stars/suns are angelic, like Tzadkiel and Severian. If you're looking for a character that embodies the Old Sun then you need to look for a Vishnu to Severian's Shiva, and I am not so sure Typhon qualifies. But I may be making absolutely no sense at all here. A side note since it doesn't seem worth a whole second post: Wolfe's comment to Josh Geller does make a lot of sense, but it could make sense in a few different ways. Do you have any more specific idea why Wolfe thought it was probably a good thing that he didn't read this list? As I said, it makes good sense regardless, but I am curious as to whether there was a more specific context. -- Civet > Blattid quoted and wrote: >>> Interesting question. I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather >>> than >>> Abaia, who is unseen). >> That is my belief, too. > Hmmm. This (?) answers the question: >> What two people, who are in some sense the same person, are the Old Sun? > Typhon and Baldanders are the same person? > > I must have slept through that. > > =mantis= --- ### James Wynn *07 Sep 2003, 13:52 · follows Chris* Civet asked: > Do you have any more specific idea why Wolfe thought it was > probably a good thing that he didn't read this list? As I said, it makes > good sense regardless, but I am curious as to whether there was a more > specific context. It was in response to Josh telling him that the current discussion (a year ago) was whether Hyacinth was a male chem. Since I suggested that theory, I remember this well. Although I no longer hold that theory, I found Wolfe's answer enigmatic - I still do. Josh does not. As for Typhon's willingness to submit to the same procedure as Mr. Million's Original (Mr. M.O.) there are some big differences between Typhon and Mr M.O. Mr. Million was considered by Aunt Jeanine AND Mr. Million to be *only* a simulation. She did not at first even consider him to be a candidate for one of "the five". Only after consideration did she say "maybe he was counting the simulation". Mr. M.O. was a mad scientist. Typhon was an meglo-maniac. Typhon was perfectly fine with a simulation of himself ruling where he could not be physically present. He even had a sense of humor about it. But the idea that he would willingly have himself destroyed so an "equivalent" could take his place seems inconceivable to me. Roy, Would you be willing to undergo surgery if you were told that you would not survive the operation "but this little boy here will be receiving all your memories" (like Thecla did with Severian only without Sev's memories)? Mantis, I reeeally like that name tag on a dog analogy. It perfectly expresses the difference between simulated and human consciousness, and supports my personal reasons for believing that computer simulation programs will never be truely conscious. That fact that we (generally) would presume that a concious program would have no problem with being downloaded to a second server and the copy on the first server destroyed shows that we all recognize the difference. Crush --- ### Don Palumbo *07 Sep 2003, 20:22 · follows James Wynn* Just dipping in for a moment, but Typhon and Baldanders are the same person thematically, as Crush suggests, in that they are both the two clearest representatives of the Ogre-Tyrant of the status quo that it is the task of the hero as warrior to overthrow.  This comes from Campbell's THE HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES, of course, and The Book of the New Sun overall (and echoed in Urth of the New Sun) is clearly Wolfe's treatment of Campbell's monomyth, the adventure of the hero, just as the Book of the Log Sun in itself is his treatment of the generational star ship story. --Don At 10:19 PM 9/6/03 -0500, James Wynn wrote: Teflon and Blattid agree: >> Interesting question.  I tend to think Typhon and >> Baldanders (rather than >> Abaia, who is unseen). > That is my belief, too. oookay. This will surely be good. While both T. and B. are cast from their towers by Severian, how oh how are they the same person? Or do you mean only thematically? I'm still working my way thru the Short Sun; is there any explanation of what happened to Typhon's kids? Skylla presumably became the famous monster tyrant of Urth. If Tartaros has a identity on Urth it is surely Erebus. What happened to Hieros?  -- Crush. ``` http://www.urth.net/ To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to urth-request at urth.net -- ``` --- ### Lisa Schaffer-Doggett *07 Sep 2003, 19:07 · follows Don Palumbo* > On Sunday, September 7, 2003, at 01:22 PM, Don Palumbo wrote: > Just dipping in for a moment, but Typhon and Baldanders are the same > person thematically, > as Crush suggests, in that they are both the two clearest > representatives of the Ogre-Tyrant of the status quo that it is the > task of the hero as warrior to overthrow.  This comes from Campbell's > THE HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES, of course, and The Book of the New Sun > overall (and echoed in Urth of the New Sun) is clearly Wolfe's > treatment of Campbell's monomyth, the adventure of the hero, just as > the Book of the Log Sun in itself is his treatment of the generational > star ship story. Don chimes in (am I the real Don, or an eidolon?): While I don't doubt this is true - and isn't Abaia as the Naviscaput an ogre - I think it is a mistake to identify tBotNS solely as a reaction to Campbell. I think an equal if not greater share is devoted to Graves (I Claudius, King Jesus, and the White Goddess especially) and there is a huge debt to Borges as well (questions of identity and time). There is also a major Rosicrucian (I think) aspect to these books, and tBotLS is in some ways a cannibalization of themes and ideas explored in the Soldier novels, which themselves owe a debt to Herodotus and Graves. The generational star ship aspect is imo the least significant part, a smokescreen so to speak. This reminds me of a comment by Stephen King about his potentially great but hugely dissapointing Dark Tower series. He said that his goal was to write the longest single story ever. I say he's wasting paper (in more ways than one) because in twelve volumes GW has compressed twenty four to thirty six volumes of story to be puzzled out. --- ### James Jordan *07 Sep 2003, 20:02 · follows Lisa Schaffer-Doggett* > At 08:52 AM 9/7/2003, Crush wrote: > Roy, > Would you be willing to undergo surgery if you were told that you would not > survive the operation "but this little boy here will be receiving all your > memories" (like Thecla did with Severian only without Sev's memories)? I'm not Roy, but my understanding of what is being suggested is that consciousness, not memories, would be downloaded. > Mantis, > I reeeally like that name tag on a dog analogy. It perfectly expresses the > difference between simulated and human consciousness, and supports my > personal reasons for believing that computer simulation programs will never > be truely conscious. That fact that we (generally) would presume that a > concious program would have no problem with being downloaded to a second > server and the copy on the first server destroyed shows that we all > recognize the difference. This is also the problem with reincarnation/metempsychosis. This transference is soul is nothing different than if an animal at my decaying body and my body transferred into him. There's nothing of what makes me ME left. The difference between reincarnation and personal annihiliation is merely a sleight-of-hand. Nutria --- ### James Wynn *07 Sep 2003, 23:08 · follows James Jordan* >> Crush wrote: >> Roy, >> Would you be willing to undergo surgery if you were told that you would >> not >> survive the operation "but this little boy here will be receiving all >> your >> memories" (like Thecla did with Severian only without Sev's memories)? > Nutria responded: > I'm not Roy, but my understanding of what is being suggested is that > consciousness, not memories, would be downloaded. Crush reponds: I'm curious what in your opinion the actual difference would be in the procedure Roy has proposed? Transferring a soul would be something only God could do. Doctors would just transfer the memories as a complete template. When Thecla's memories are absorbed by Severian, she comes to life inside him. Rose's "soul" (in an Animist/Spiritualist/Judeo/Christian/Muslim/Hindu/traditional-Buddhist sense) does not continue to exists in Marble. Only her memories and the conclusions she held based on those memories (yet her POV was still subject to evolution within Marble). Based on an answer Wolfe gave to a question I posed during the scifi.com online chat, Wolfe seems to (to a significant extent anyway) equate identity with memory. Something I forgot to mention is that Lemur did not consider Typhon or his family to have in any real way "lived on" in Mainframe. He called them "ghosts" (ironic considering his own name) -- spectres of actual persons long dead. And when he discovered that his bio body had died, he was stunned and horrified. Clearly Lemur did not consider his "consciousness" completely transferred to a chem to be valid -- in his mind he had become a "ghost" or "simulation" (in Fifth Head terms). -- Crush --- ### Jeff Veyera *08 Sep 2003, 00:29 · follows James Wynn* Crush notes: : While both T. and B. are cast from their towers by Severian, how oh how are they the same person? Or do you mean only thematically?: Teflon responds: Speaking for myself, I meant Typhon and Baldanders are the same thematically. Both represent regressive elements trying to alter humanity's future and prevent the coming of the New Sun. Both employ ancient high technology to do this. Both have been willingly physically altered to accomplish their missions. Both are driven by a lust for power and employ diabolical genius to achieve their ends. Both are master manipulators. To me, anyway, they typify the world of the Old Sun. Teflon93 -----Original Message----- From: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at hotpop.com] Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 8:19 PM To: urth at urth.net Subject: Re: (urth) Duh! Part 2. Teflon and Blattid agree: >> Interesting question. I tend to think Typhon and Baldanders (rather than >> Abaia, who is unseen). > That is my belief, too. oookay. This will surely be good. While both T. and B. are cast from their towers by Severian, how oh how are they the same person? Or do you mean only thematically? I'm still working my way thru the Short Sun; is there any explanation of what happened to Typhon's kids? Skylla presumably became the famous monster tyrant of Urth. If Tartaros has a identity on Urth it is surely Erebus. What happened to Hieros? -- Crush. ``` -- ``` --- ### Don Doggett *08 Sep 2003, 02:11 · follows Jeff Veyera* > On Sunday, September 7, 2003, at 01:02 PM, James Jordan wrote: > > This is also the problem with reincarnation/metempsychosis. This > transference is soul is nothing different than if an animal at my > decaying body and my body transferred into him. There's nothing of > what makes me ME left. The difference between reincarnation and > personal annihiliation is merely a sleight-of-hand. And yet this is exactly what happens when the Alzabo eats Severa or Severian eats the forebrain of Appian. This is also what happens with the Inhumi when they feed on humans or (if the theory is correct) to the trees on Blue when they devour things. In UotNS Barbatus (I think) makes the analogy of a poem written on a wall or on a piece of paper (or some such, you get the idea) Which is the real poem or the real soul? Typhon? Silk? Pas? Severian the original, or Severian the eidolon? Or is it the Severian in the mausoleum? This is the biggest question in these books, and a deliberately open one, though I'm sure GW has his opinion. As far as Typhon, there are practical reasons that he can't transfer himself directly into a clone. Piaton is his strongest slave, the only one who could survive the head transplant, so that's out. Transfering his brain won't work because the neural connections are too complicated. This is all given in Sword of the Lictor. Copying himself into a program and transfering himself into a clone on Urth gives him two Typhons. No good. He wouldn't share power even with himself. This is what I think. Silk was raised to be occupied by Pas and rule until Typhon the immortal (so he thought) could reorganize his empire and quietly dispose of him and take over his primitively equipped colonies, hence the lack of stellar weapons on the Whorl. What he didn't count on, on Urth or the Whorl, was the rebellion of his family disrupting these plans. And he certainly didn't count on the intervention of the Outsider in the life of his little uberclone. Didn't GW recently give a speech saying that no one is beyond redemption? I truly believe that is one of the strongest streams and themes running through this cycle. Don steps off his box --- ### Andrew Bollen *08 Sep 2003, 02:34 · follows Don Doggett* > And yet this is exactly what happens when the Alzabo eats Severa or > Severian eats the forebrain of Appian. This is also what happens with > the Inhumi when they feed on humans or (if the theory is correct) to > the trees on Blue when they devour things. In UotNS Barbatus (I think) > makes the analogy of a poem written on a wall or on a piece of paper > (or some such, you get the idea) For me, one of the ummm metaphysical or whatever underpinnings of the Sun books is that "soul" will take any opportunity it can to take root and grow, pretty much regardless of the soil or seed. So the chems definitely have souls, but we are not to think of their programmers as being in any respect Creators. Rather, it is divine Grace, filling the universe to bursting point, which latches on to these profane efforts and sanctifies them. Any striving towards being "real people" brings huge & fast results. Babbie, Oreb, even (perhaps) Silkhorn's staff, even the soul-predating inhumi, especially under the influence of Silkhorn's charisma, but even without it. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *08 Sep 2003, 13:31 · follows Andrew Bollen* Don P. notes that > Typhon and Baldanders are ... the two clearest representatives of the > Ogre-Tyrant of the status quo that it is the task of the hero as warrior > to overthrow. While I did not have Campbellian hero-myth terminology in mind, this is very much the kind of thing I was thinking of. I am not totally satisfied with it, because the "same person" business is more direct in all other cases. The other possibility that had occurred to me, but is even more unsatisfactory for other reasons, is that the Old Sun is Typhon ... and Pas. --- ### Don Palumbo *08 Sep 2003, 16:42 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* Well, for sure! --Don > At 12:07 PM 9/7/03 -0700, Lisa Schaffer-Doggett wrote: > On Sunday, September 7, 2003, at 01:22 PM, Don Palumbo wrote: >> Just dipping in for a moment, but Typhon and Baldanders are the same >> person thematically, >> as Crush suggests, in that they are both the two clearest representatives >> of the Ogre-Tyrant of the status quo that it is the task of the hero as >> warrior to overthrow. This comes from Campbell's THE HERO WITH A >> THOUSAND FACES, of course, and The Book of the New Sun overall (and >> echoed in Urth of the New Sun) is clearly Wolfe's treatment of Campbell's >> monomyth, the adventure of the hero, just as the Book of the Log Sun in >> itself is his treatment of the generational star ship story. > Don chimes in (am I the real Don, or an eidolon?): > > While I don't doubt this is true - and isn't Abaia as the Naviscaput an > ogre - I think it is a mistake to identify tBotNS solely as a reaction to > Campbell. I think an equal if not greater share is devoted to Graves (I > Claudius, King Jesus, and the White Goddess especially) and there is a > huge debt to Borges as well (questions of identity and time). There is > also a major Rosicrucian (I think) aspect to these books, and tBotLS is in > some ways a cannibalization of themes and ideas explored in the Soldier > novels, which themselves owe a debt to Herodotus and Graves. The > generational star ship aspect is imo the least significant part, a > smokescreen so to speak. > > This reminds me of a comment by Stephen King about his potentially great > but hugely dissapointing Dark Tower series. He said that his goal was to > write the longest single story ever. I say he's wasting paper (in more > ways than one) because in twelve volumes GW has compressed twenty four to > thirty six volumes of story to be puzzled out. > > > -- ---