{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4202", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4202, "subject": "Who is the Long Sun?", "messages": 7, "voices": 7, "first": "2003-09-06T05:15:35+00:00", "last": "2003-09-09T09:41:39+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2003-09-06T05:15:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who is the Long Sun?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey guys. So parallelism has finally led the question \"Who are the long and \nshort suns, if Severian is the New sun?\" to appear on the list. And strangely \nenough, we have an answer in the text of Calde of the Long Sun.\n\nAuk is the Long Sun.\n\nDuring the tunnel scene (I read it last week - it's just shy of halfway \nthrough the book, but I don't have the book with me now) where Auk is down \nthere posessed and having hallucinations and he's looking for Dace, he starts \nthinking to himself and comes to the conclusion that, of course, he is the \nlong sun. I remember scratching my head at that one. Does that mean that the \ngod that possesses Auk controls the cooling and heating of the Sun, or does it \nmean that Auk himself is in some way a manifestation of the Long Sun, since he \n\"doesn't have a father or mother\" but mysteriously has a brother who is more \nthan happy to show up after his death.\n\nAny thoughts on that?\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-09-06T06:05:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Who is the Long Sun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc says," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Auk is the Long Sun.\n\nDuring the tunnel scene (I read it last week - it's just shy of halfway\nthrough the book, but I don't have the book with me now) where Auk is down\nthere posessed and having hallucinations and he's looking for Dace, he\nstarts\nthinking to himself and comes to the conclusion that, of course, he is the\nlong sun. I remember scratching my head at that one.\nAny thoughts on that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds:\nI'd forgotten about that. Okay. This is the wierdest puzzle I've come across\nin the whole LS/SS series. Which is, how is Auk Silk? They evenly divide\nbetween them the activities of three totally separate mythological\narchetypes. Yet in one of those archetypal references, Auk is Silk's\nbrother.\n\nBefore Silk's robbery, Silk shrives Auk. Afterward, Auk shrives Silk\ninsisting he tell him every bit of the act.\n\nBut Mucor even says that Auk is Silk. In Exodus otLS, Chenille is having\nMucor look for Auk. Auk is at Sun Street\nmanteon preaching and sacrificing which he's been doing since Silk stopped\ndoing it (another Silk parallel). Chenilles says \"Where is Auk?\" and Mucur\nresponds \"Where Auk is....Silk?\"\n\nLong ago I posted that Auk appeared to be the \"awk-end\" of Silk. But that\nwas before I realized the extent to which Wolfe treats them (thematically)\nas a single personality.\n\nSince we're talking about shared identities, I'll point out that Auk \"casts\ndown\" Silk (Typhon's clone) into a pit in analogy of Severian casting down\nTyphon (after Silk is resurrected -- just like Typhon). Now Marc points out\nthat Auk is the Long Sun just as Severian is the New Sun. So a question\nthat's been lurking for some time in my mind has come to fore full-fledged:\nWHY is Auk (somehow) both Severian *and* Silk.\n\nPreemptively I'll caution that it won't do to say that that these are two\nunrelated associations that have nothing to do with the narrative. I have\nbecome quite convinced that Wolfe doesn't write that way. If there is\n*anything* to these references then they are woven tightly into the story\nand are simultaneously true.\n\nI've considered that Auk is a clone of Severian (both are dark featured,\nsexually attractive, and carrying swords) and that their differences in\nbuild are due to differences in upbringing and environment. But how would\nthat explain why Silk and Auk are the same personalities? Silk and Auk are\nclones? (hence my recent confabulation with Don's theories) But they are as\ndifferent in appearance as Typhon and Severian. And then there's Auk's\nbrother, Bustard -- a mysterious wildcard whose significance I have yet to\ndivine either to the narrative or to any of the themes I've identified.\n\nSo Marc, I have lots of thoughts, but no conclusions.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-09-06T06:40:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Who is the Long Sun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is an obvious analog to Auk in the New Sun books - Hildegrim the\nbadger.\n\nLike Auk, Hildegrim is tall, heavy, dark and strong, starts out as our\nhero's mentor, is morally ambiguous, and comes to a bad end.\n\nAnd there is a near-\"twinning\" in the scene with Apu-Punchau in the dead\ntown\n\nAuk/Hildegrim seems to be the *false* brother\n\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nCrush responds:\nI'd forgotten about that. Okay. This is the wierdest puzzle I've come\nacross\nin the whole LS/SS series. Which is, how is Auk Silk? They evenly divide\nbetween them the activities of three totally separate mythological\narchetypes. Yet in one of those archetypal references, Auk is Silk's\nbrother." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-09-06T14:31:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Who is the Long Sun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:40 AM 9/6/2003, you wrote:\nThere is an obvious analog to Auk in the New Sun books - Hildegrim the\nbadger.\n\nLike Auk, Hildegrim is tall, heavy, dark and strong, starts out as our\nhero's mentor, is morally ambiguous, and comes to a bad end.\n\nAnd there is a near-\"twinning\" in the scene with Apu-Punchau in the dead\ntown\n\nAuk/Hildegrim seems to be the *false* brother\n\n\n hartshorn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is Biblical background for this also, with Cain and Abel, and even \nmore, the twins Esau and Jacob. Behind these pairs are Lucifer and the \nAngel of Yahweh, who wrestle for the soul.\n There seem to be some differences between Wolfe's two narratives. \nSeverian is a morally ambiguous man who is becoming better; Hildegrim is a \nmorally ambiguous man who becomes worse, iirc.\n Auk is a bit more like a Peter to Silk's Jesus. If Auk is the LS, \nperhaps it is because he is \"in union with\" Silk, and Silk is the more \nfoundational LS. Perhaps it's relevant that Mucor confuses Silk and Auk in \n*Exodus,* which is after the resurrection of Silk, when, so to speak, his \nspirit is going forth to unite others to him.\n Of course, that does not explain why Auk thinks of himself as the \nLS in *Calde.*\n Of course, in a narrative full of clones, there is probably more \nto it than that. Hmmm. Speculation: Auk is a clone of the god who controls \nthe LS, who is a son of Typhon/Pas. Silk is a clone of Typhon/Pas. They are \nson and father, clonely. That would fit with the theme of Silk acting as \nfather (patera) to Auk.\n This would lead to saying that Pas and Silk are the LS, and the \ngod and Auk are \"son of\" the LS.\n Don't know if this advances things any.\n\nNutria\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-09-06T15:46:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Who is the Long Sun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush responds:\nI'd forgotten about that. Okay. This is the wierdest puzzle I've come\nacross\nin the whole LS/SS series. Which is, how is Auk Silk? They evenly divide\nbetween them the activities of three totally separate mythological\narchetypes. Yet in one of those archetypal references, Auk is Silk's\nbrother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The most obvious analogy (but one which can't be ignored, given the title\nword \"Exodus\"), is with Aaron and Moses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've considered that Auk is a clone of Severian (both are dark featured,\nsexually attractive, and carrying swords) and that their differences in\nbuild are due to differences in upbringing and environment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The _Whorl_ was launched a thousand years before Sev was born. How could Auk\nbe his clone?\n\nAll this casual talk of cloning that's been going on lately from various\nquarters strikes me as improbable, given what we know of Typhon. He wanted\nto live forever--and he wanted to do it with the same face he started out\nwith. If cloning had been a workable option available to Typhon, why didn't\nhe use it, rather than resort to the bizarre choice of having his own head\ncut off? When the clone was mature enough, he could have had his brain scan\ndownloaded to it, just as was done with \"possession\" in LS. He had the time;\nthe _Whorl_ had to have taken many years to build and had been launched\nbefore he lost his struggle with Piaton for control of the body behind that\ncurtain.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-09-06T15:56:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Who is the Long Sun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nAll this casual talk of cloning that's been going on lately from various\nquarters strikes me as improbable, given what we know of Typhon. He wanted\nto live forever--and he wanted to do it with the same face he started out\nwith. If cloning had been a workable option available to Typhon, why\ndidn't\nhe use it, rather than resort to the bizarre choice of having his own head\ncut off?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another gap between New Sun and SS/LS. IMO it would be odd if the Typhon of\nSS/LS could not clone huimans, given the apparent level of genetic\ntechnology at his command. And as Roy says, if the Typhon of NS could clone,\nand given that he can download personailites, a head transplant doesn't seem\nlike the best solution to his problem." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-09-09T09:41:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Who is the Long Sun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/09/2003 16:56:13 \"Andrew Bollen\" wrote:\nRoy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All this casual talk of cloning that's been going on lately from \nvarious\nquarters strikes me as improbable, given what we know of Typhon. He \nwanted\nto live forever--and he wanted to do it with the same face he started \nout\nwith. If cloning had been a workable option available to Typhon, why\ndidn't\nhe use it, rather than resort to the bizarre choice of having his own \nhead\ncut off?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another gap between New Sun and SS/LS. IMO it would be odd if the Typhon \nof\nSS/LS could not clone huimans, given the apparent level of genetic\ntechnology at his command. And as Roy says, if the Typhon of NS could \nclone,\nand given that he can download personailites, a head transplant doesn't \nseem\nlike the best solution to his problem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We can store egg and sperm. We can perform in vitro fertilisation and \nstore the resulting gamete. However human cloning remains a theoretical \nproposition and the \"success\" of animal cloning problematic.\n\nIf Typhon could do better such technologies would seem to have presented a \nsimpler solution than chems.\n\nThe personality download is clearly possible but we can't say that it is \nperfect. Pas is not the Typhon we glimps on Urth. If the dlifferences \nare deliberate rather than an artifact of an imperfect process we need a \nmotivation for the manipulations.\n\nFor New, Long and Short suns to be internally consistant Typhon cannot \nhave perfect cloning or more esoteric genetic manipulation at his \ndisposal.\n\nIf they are not internally conistsant (be that as deliberate policy or \nfrom the constraints of retro-fitting Typhon into the more recent story) \nthere can be no coherant solution apt to both stories.\n\nFor my part I suspect that Typhon was a lot more technologically \nconstrained than he sugegstes to Severain at either of their meetings.\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }