Subject: (urth) Who is the Long Sun?

From: maa32 <maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 05:15:35 +0000

Hey guys.  So parallelism has finally led the question "Who are the long and 
short suns, if Severian is the New sun?" to appear on the list.  And strangely 
enough, we have an answer in the text of Calde of the Long Sun.

Auk is the Long Sun.

During the tunnel scene (I read it last week - it's just shy of halfway 
through the book, but I don't have the book with me now) where Auk is down 
there posessed and having hallucinations and he's looking for Dace, he starts 
thinking to himself and comes to the conclusion that, of course, he is the 
long sun.  I remember scratching my head at that one.  Does that mean that the 
god that possesses Auk controls the cooling and heating of the Sun, or does it 
mean that Auk himself is in some way a manifestation of the Long Sun, since he 
"doesn't have a father or mother" but mysteriously has a brother who is more 
than happy to show up after his death.

Any thoughts on that?

Marc Aramini

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 06:05:54 +0000

Marc says,
> long sun.  I remember scratching my head at that one.
> Any thoughts on that?

Crush responds:
I'd forgotten about that. Okay. This is the wierdest puzzle I've come across
in the whole LS/SS series. Which is, how is Auk Silk? They evenly divide
between them the activities of three totally separate mythological
archetypes. Yet in one of those archetypal references, Auk is Silk's
brother.

Before Silk's robbery, Silk shrives Auk. Afterward, Auk shrives Silk
insisting he tell him every bit of the act.

But Mucor even says that Auk is Silk. In Exodus otLS, Chenille is having
Mucor look for Auk. Auk is at Sun Street
manteon preaching and sacrificing which he's been doing since Silk stopped
doing it (another Silk parallel). Chenilles says "Where is Auk?" and Mucur
responds "Where Auk is....Silk?"

Long ago I posted that Auk appeared to be the "awk-end" of Silk. But that
was before I realized the extent to which Wolfe treats them (thematically)
as a single personality.

Since we're talking about shared identities, I'll point out that Auk "casts
down" Silk (Typhon's clone) into a pit in analogy of Severian casting down
Typhon (after Silk is resurrected -- just like Typhon). Now Marc points out
that Auk is the Long Sun just as Severian is the New Sun. So a question
that's been lurking for some time in my mind has come to fore full-fledged:
WHY is Auk (somehow) both Severian *and* Silk.

Preemptively I'll caution that it won't do to say that that these are two
unrelated associations that have nothing to do with the narrative. I have
become quite convinced that Wolfe doesn't write that way. If there is
*anything* to these references then they are woven tightly into the story
and are simultaneously true.

I've considered that Auk is a clone of Severian (both are dark featured,
sexually attractive, and carrying swords) and that their differences in
build are due to differences in upbringing and environment. But how would
that explain why Silk and Auk are the same personalities? Silk and Auk are
clones? (hence my recent confabulation with Don's theories) But they are as
different in appearance as Typhon and Severian. And then there's Auk's
brother, Bustard -- a mysterious wildcard whose significance I have yet to
divine either to the narrative or to any of the themes I've identified.

So Marc, I have lots of thoughts, but no conclusions.

-- Crush

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 06:40:20 +0000

There is an obvious analog to Auk in the New Sun books - Hildegrim the
badger.

Like Auk, Hildegrim is tall, heavy, dark and strong,  starts out as our
hero's mentor, is morally ambiguous, and comes to a bad end.

And there is a near-"twinning" in the scene with Apu-Punchau in the dead
town

Auk/Hildegrim seems to be the *false* brother

    hartshorn

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at hotpop.com>

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 14:31:36 +0000

>Auk/Hildegrim seems to be the *false* brother

There is Biblical background for this also, with Cain and Abel, and even 
more, the twins Esau and Jacob. Behind these pairs are Lucifer and the 
Angel of Yahweh, who wrestle for the soul.
         There seem to be some differences between Wolfe's two narratives. 
Severian is a morally ambiguous man who is becoming better; Hildegrim is a 
morally ambiguous man who becomes worse, iirc.
         Auk is a bit more like a Peter to Silk's Jesus. If Auk is the LS, 
perhaps it is because he is "in union with" Silk, and Silk is the more 
foundational LS. Perhaps it's relevant that Mucor confuses Silk and Auk in 
*Exodus,* which is after the resurrection of Silk, when, so to speak, his 
spirit is going forth to unite others to him.
         Of course, that does not explain why Auk thinks of himself as the 
LS in *Calde.*
         Of course, in a narrative full of clones, there is probably more 
to it than that. Hmmm. Speculation: Auk is a clone of the god who controls 
the LS, who is a son of Typhon/Pas. Silk is a clone of Typhon/Pas. They are 
son and father, clonely. That would fit with the theme of Silk acting as 
father (patera) to Auk.
         This would lead to saying that Pas and Silk are the LS, and the 
god and Auk are "son of" the LS.
         Don't know if this advances things any.

Nutria

Nutria

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 15:46:58 +0000

>archetypes. Yet in one of those archetypal references, Auk is Silk's

The most obvious analogy (but one which can't be ignored, given the title
word "Exodus"), is with Aaron and Moses.

>build are due to differences in upbringing and environment.

The _Whorl_ was launched a thousand years before Sev was born. How could Auk
be his clone?

All this casual talk of cloning that's been going on lately from various
quarters strikes me as improbable, given what we know of Typhon. He wanted
to live forever--and he wanted to do it with the same face he started out
with. If cloning had been a workable option available to Typhon, why didn't
he use it, rather than resort to the bizarre choice of having his own head
cut off? When the clone was mature enough, he could have had his brain scan
downloaded to it, just as was done with "possession" in LS. He had the time;
the _Whorl_ had to have taken many years to build and had been launched
before he lost his struggle with Piaton for control of the body behind that
curtain.

-Roy

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From: Andrew Bollen <abollen at internode.on.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 15:56:13 +0000

Roy wrote:

> cut off?

Another gap between New Sun and SS/LS. IMO it would be odd if the Typhon of
SS/LS could not clone huimans, given the apparent level of genetic
technology at his command. And as Roy says, if the Typhon of NS could clone,
and given that he can download personailites, a head transplant doesn't seem
like the best solution to his problem.

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:41:39 +0000

>like the best solution to his problem.

We can store egg and sperm.  We can perform in vitro fertilisation and 
store the resulting gamete.  However human cloning remains a theoretical 
proposition and the "success" of animal cloning problematic.

If Typhon could do better such technologies would seem to have presented a 
simpler solution than chems.

The personality download is clearly possible but we can't say that it is 
perfect.  Pas is not the Typhon we glimps on Urth.  If the dlifferences 
are deliberate rather than an artifact of an imperfect process we need a 
motivation for the manipulations.

For New, Long and Short suns to be internally consistant Typhon cannot 
have perfect cloning or more esoteric genetic manipulation at his 
disposal.

If they are not internally conistsant (be that as deliberate policy or 
from the constraints of retro-fitting Typhon into the more recent story) 
there can be no coherant solution apt to both stories.

For my part I suspect that Typhon was a lot more technologically 
constrained than he sugegstes to Severain at either of their meetings.

Matthew

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