{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4204", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4204, "subject": "Typhon's choices", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-09-06T17:32:39+00:00", "last": "2003-09-07T08:49:45+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-09-06T17:32:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's choices", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew quoted Roy and wrote:\nAll this casual talk of cloning that's been going on lately from various\nquarters strikes me as improbable, given what we know of Typhon. He wanted\nto live forever--and he wanted to do it with the same face he started out\nwith. If cloning had been a workable option available to Typhon, why\ndidn't\nhe use it, rather than resort to the bizarre choice of having his own head\ncut off?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another gap between New Sun and SS/LS. IMO it would be odd if the Typhon of\nSS/LS could not clone huimans, given the apparent level of genetic\ntechnology at his command. And as Roy says, if the Typhon of NS could clone,\nand given that he can download personailites, a head transplant doesn't seem\nlike the best solution to his problem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I'm not myself so interested in \"this casual talk of cloning,\" and\nthus do not want to be seen as defending it, still, the point of Roy and\nAndrew that Typhon could have used a clone with a personality\nimplant/download misses what I think is the critical criteria for Typhon\nthe original biological individual: the continuity of experience.\n\nDamien Broderick covered this quite well in THE SPIKE. In my own form of\nit, I say: the new form has to be a transfer of the old form, not just a\n\"perfect copy.\" That is, the old form (Typhon software) must transfer, as\nif pouring wine from one wineglass (body) to another wineglass (body).\nOtherwise, in my crude way I continue, one might as well write one's name\non a card, tape this card to a dog, say \"There I go!\" and then shoot one's\nreal self--for all the good that a lack of continuity of experience will do\nfor the old form.\n\nPersonality download/body hijacking =is= an option for the computer bound\ngods of Mainframe because their \"originals\" are uploads, scans from\nbiological people, scans that have a life of their own.\n\nHaving one's head surgically grafted onto the hulking body of a slave\n(note: body upgrade here) is unambiguously a continuity of experience for\nthe old form. One need not waste even a sentence to explain how this \"Mona\nLisa\" copy is the real \"Mona Lisa\": it is the \"Mona Lisa,\" period.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-09-07T05:13:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon's choices", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nWhile I'm not myself so interested in \"this casual talk of cloning,\" and\nthus do not want to be seen as defending it, still, the point of Roy and\nAndrew that Typhon could have used a clone with a personality\nimplant/download misses what I think is the critical criteria for Typhon\nthe original biological individual: the continuity of experience." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Having one's head surgically grafted onto the hulking body of a slave\n(note: body upgrade here) is unambiguously a continuity of experience for\nthe old form." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Typhon never lost consciousness during the operation, then I could agree.\nBut I think it's almost 100% certain that he lost consciousness at some\npoint, if not from anesthesia, then the decollation itself. If he never\nregained consciousness he would never know it. If he did regain\nconsciousness, hours or days later, then from his point of view it wouldn't\nmatter if he did so in a head grafted onto an unwilling slave's body or into\nthe fresh body of a clone. Either way, there is just as much personal\n\"continuity of experience\" as anyone has when they wake from sleep or a\nknock on the head.\n\nYou will object that, in the case of cloning, the original Typhon would\nstill be alive and wouldn't want to die. That's not necessarily the case.\nThat body was failing anyway, and it would have been Typhon's own choice to\nmake the transfer in the first place. He wouldn't have been an unwilling\nvictim. Even if he had second thoughts after the transfer--too bad. The\noriginal Typhon was a megalomaniac, but he was also intelligent and\nruthless. The clone would be the same. I don't see Typhon having any qualms\nat all about having his original self killed; he would know that he could\nhave no more dangerous a rival. He could even have arranged for the scan to\nbe fatal, as it was in 5HC.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-09-07T06:31:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon's choices", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nHaving one's head surgically grafted onto the hulking body of a slave\n(note: body upgrade here) is unambiguously a continuity of experience for\nthe old form." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Typhon never lost consciousness during the operation, then I could\nagree.\nBut I think it's almost 100% certain that he lost consciousness at some\npoint, if not from anesthesia, then the decollation itself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, even deep anaesthesia does not turn your brain off completely.\n\nBut basically I think Typhon would not submit to havng his identity/soul/ka\nuploaded into a machine and squirted down into a clone for the simple reason\nthat he could trust no-one and could never allow himself to be helpless.\n\nIn fact, now you have said it, I bet that he underwent the transplant op\nfully conscious and with his tongue wrapped round the trigger of some\nfailsafe device that would have killed the surgeons if he died or even\nbecame unconscious.\n\nThe thought of a story from the POV of one of these surgeons floats into my\nmind.\n\n\nThey say Wolfe reads this list, but how could he possibly be influenced to\nwrite such a story? Not by direct request.\n\nTime to go and prepare my sacrifical knife . .\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-09-07T08:49:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon's choices", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 2003-09-06 at 23:31, Andy Robertson wrote:\nThey say Wolfe reads this list, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They may.\n\nBut Wolfe said to me that it was probably a good thing that he didn't.\n\nThat was last year. \n\n\n\n\n." } ] } ] }