Subject: (urth) Typhon's choices

From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 17:32:39 +0000

Andrew quoted Roy and wrote:
>> All this casual talk of cloning that's been going on lately from various
>> quarters strikes me as improbable, given what we know of Typhon. He wanted
>> to live forever--and he wanted to do it with the same face he started out
>> with. If cloning had been a workable option available to Typhon, why
>didn't
>> he use it, rather than resort to the bizarre choice of having his own head
>> cut off?
>
>Another gap between New Sun and SS/LS. IMO it would be odd if the Typhon of
>SS/LS could not clone huimans, given the apparent level of genetic
>technology at his command. And as Roy says, if the Typhon of NS could clone,
>and given that he can download personailites, a head transplant doesn't seem
>like the best solution to his problem.

While I'm not myself so interested in "this casual talk of cloning," and
thus do not want to be seen as defending it, still, the point of Roy and
Andrew that Typhon could have used a clone with a personality
implant/download misses what I think is the critical criteria for Typhon
the original biological individual: the continuity of experience.

Damien Broderick covered this quite well in THE SPIKE.  In my own form of
it, I say: the new form has to be a transfer of the old form, not just a
"perfect copy."  That is, the old form (Typhon software) must transfer, as
if pouring wine from one wineglass (body) to another wineglass (body).
Otherwise, in my crude way I continue, one might as well write one's name
on a card, tape this card to a dog, say "There I go!" and then shoot one's
real self--for all the good that a lack of continuity of experience will do
for the old form.

Personality download/body hijacking =is= an option for the computer bound
gods of Mainframe because their "originals" are uploads, scans from
biological people, scans that have a life of their own.

Having one's head surgically grafted onto the hulking body of a slave
(note: body upgrade here) is unambiguously a continuity of experience for
the old form.  One need not waste even a sentence to explain how this "Mona
Lisa" copy is the real "Mona Lisa": it is the "Mona Lisa," period.

=mantis=

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 05:13:27 +0000

>the original biological individual: the continuity of experience.
[snip]
>the old form.

If Typhon never lost consciousness during the operation, then I could agree.
But I think it's almost 100% certain that he lost consciousness at some
point, if not from anesthesia, then the decollation itself. If he never
regained consciousness he would never know it. If he did regain
consciousness, hours or days later, then from his point of view it wouldn't
matter if he did so in a head grafted onto an unwilling slave's body or into
the fresh body of a clone. Either way, there is just as much personal
"continuity of experience" as anyone has when they wake from sleep or a
knock on the head.

You will object that, in the case of cloning, the original Typhon would
still be alive and wouldn't want to die. That's not necessarily the case.
That body was failing anyway, and it would have been Typhon's own choice to
make the transfer in the first place. He wouldn't have been an unwilling
victim. Even if he had second thoughts after the transfer--too bad. The
original Typhon was a megalomaniac, but he was also intelligent and
ruthless. The clone would be the same. I don't see Typhon having any qualms
at all about having his original self killed; he would know that he could
have no more dangerous a rival. He could even have arranged for the scan to
be fatal, as it was in 5HC.

-Roy

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 06:31:21 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net>
> point, if not from anesthesia, then the decollation itself.

Well, even deep anaesthesia does not turn your brain off completely.

But basically I think Typhon would not submit to havng his identity/soul/ka
uploaded into a machine and squirted down into a clone for the simple reason
that he could trust no-one and could never allow himself to be helpless.

In fact, now you have said it, I bet that he underwent the transplant op
fully conscious and with his tongue wrapped round the trigger of some
failsafe device that would have killed the surgeons if he died or even
became unconscious.

The thought of a story from the POV of one of these surgeons floats into my
mind.

They say Wolfe reads this list, but how could he possibly be influenced to
write such a story?  Not by direct request.

Time to go and prepare my sacrifical knife . .

    hartshorn

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 08:49:45 +0000

On Sat, 2003-09-06 at 23:31, Andy Robertson wrote:

> They say Wolfe reads this list, 

They may.

But Wolfe said to me that it was probably a good thing that he didn't.

That was last year. 

.

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