{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4205", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4205, "subject": "Clones of the Long Sun", "messages": 8, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-09-06T19:07:23+00:00", "last": "2003-09-09T01:15:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-09-06T19:07:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Clones of the Long Sun", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I see it, the chief benefit of the Typhon Clone explanation originally\nput forward by Don is the number of narrative puzzles it answers, and that\nit explains many of Wolfe's literary choices.\n\nIf you never wondered why Silk was invited to by the Mainframe operators to\nbe scanned and merged with Pas....\nor if it doesn't seem odd to you that Kypris, Echidna, and Scylla would back\nas Calde' an obscure augur of the poorest mantaeon in a Whorl-city that has\nrelinquished proper worship (human sacrifice...\nor if it is not striking to you that Silk has a \"typhonic\" beard\n(reddish-blonde) as Grave's (an important Wolfe source) called it in \"King\nJesus\"...\nor if any significance to Silk sharing in many of the same archetypal\nreferences as Pas and Typhon fly right by you...\n\n...well, then recognizing that Silk is a clone of Typhon would only\nconvolute things for you. If those bits seem peculiar or significant then\nSilk-as-Typhon's-clone clears up a lot of things.\n\n\n\nThe danger as I see it is that there are a lot merging and confabulating of\nidentities in the Long Sun and it is too easy to try to resolve them all\nwith one more clone. Wolfe has shown himself too clever to over-use a\nsingle method let alone such an obvious one. First he has bios merging with\nchems, and then separately he has chems merging with bios. He has a boy\nmerging with his teacher. He has Mainframe gods merging in various ways with\nhumanity, and according to Silk, one of them merging identies with the real\nGod. He has an alien monster merging self-interest with the best attributes\nof humanity to the point that he became a saintly old man sacrificing his\nlife to guide his people to Green so they can be food so his race can\nfurther internalize humanity. In the NS we have people merging with an alien\nmonster by being devoured and people merging with people through eating them\n(once again self-interest merged with altruism as the beast gave its life to\nprotect its food/family). In tFHoC we have clones, yes, but we also have\nalien \"abos\" becoming and replacing humans (has anyone pointed out that VRT\nand Number 5 share dreams as though they are twins?).\n\nI'm not sure yet why or how Auk is Silk or Severian. But I doubt it will be\nonly another clone. It will be some new method or a clever twist on some\nmethod already used.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-09-06T22:31:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Clones of the Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:07 PM 9/6/2003, Crush wrote:\nAs I see it, the chief benefit of the Typhon Clone explanation originally\nput forward by Don is the number of narrative puzzles it answers, and that\nit explains many of Wolfe's literary choices.\n\nIf you never wondered why Silk was invited to by the Mainframe operators to\nbe scanned and merged with Pas...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I'm not anticlone, but my own guess when I read the books, which \nI'll offer for rebuttal, is that Silk is a son of Typhon. In Mainframe, \nGoodpas, Silk, and Kypris form a model of the Trinity, with Kypris as Love \n(and Love is the Holy Spirit in Augustinian theology). And it appears to me \nthat Silk as a son of Pas would just as well account for the other things \nyou listed, though perhaps not for everything that Don or someone else \nmight point out:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or if it doesn't seem odd to you that Kypris, Echidna, and Scylla would back\nas Calde' an obscure augur of the poorest mantaeon in a Whorl-city that has\nrelinquished proper worship (human sacrifice..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "sure, Silk is the son. Biblically, the Father intends to make the Son into \nthe king, not to be king Himself; and:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or if it is not striking to you that Silk has a \"typhonic\" beard\n(reddish-blonde) as Grave's (an important Wolfe source) called it in \"King\nJesus\"..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "sure, Silk is Jesus, and hence son, and:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or if any significance to Silk sharing in many of the same archetypal\nreferences as Pas and Typhon fly right by you..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "would a father-son relationship account for these? If Wolfe had in mind \nthat the Trinity is One as well as Three, the identity of archetypes could \nbe accounted for that way, perhaps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The danger as I see it is that there are a lot merging and confabulating of\nidentities in the Long Sun and it is too easy to try to resolve them all\nwith one more clone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. That's been my reservation also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Wolfe has shown himself too clever to over-use a\nsingle method let alone such an obvious one. First he has bios merging with\nchems, and then separately he has chems merging with bios. He has a boy\nmerging with his teacher. He has Mainframe gods merging in various ways \nwith humanity, and according to Silk, one of them merging identies with \nthe real God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't recall this, unless you're thinking of the Outsider as linked to \nsomeone in Mainframe. Who? I thought the whole point was that the Outsider \nis ... outside." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " He has an alien monster merging self-interest with the best attributes\nof humanity to the point that he became a saintly old man sacrificing his\nlife to guide his people to Green so they can be food so his race can\nfurther internalize humanity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very interesting spin on Q. I like it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the NS we have people merging with an alien\nmonster by being devoured and people merging with people through eating \nthem (once again self-interest merged with altruism as the beast gave its \nlife to protect its food/family)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All of which is not to mention simple thematic parallels that may not \nindicate any kind of physical/psychical merging; and the possibility that \nthe Outsider's Spirit is creating bonds and \"mergings.\"\n\nFWIW\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-06T22:49:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Clones of the Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 03:31 PM, James Jordan wrote:\nAt 02:07 PM 9/6/2003, Crush wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I see it, the chief benefit of the Typhon Clone explanation \noriginally\nput forward by Don is the number of narrative puzzles it answers, and \nthat\nit explains many of Wolfe's literary choices.\n\nIf you never wondered why Silk was invited to by the Mainframe \noperators to\nbe scanned and merged with Pas...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I'm not anticlone, but my own guess when I read the books, \nwhich I'll offer for rebuttal, is that Silk is a son of Typhon. In \nMainframe, Goodpas, Silk, and Kypris form a model of the Trinity, with \nKypris as Love (and Love is the Holy Spirit in Augustinian theology). \nAnd it appears to me that Silk as a son of Pas would just as well \naccount for the other things you listed, though perhaps not for \neverything that Don or someone else might point out:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but (according to orthodoxy) the Father and the Son are the same. \n As I pointed out, by making Silk a clone of Typhon he is both Typhon \n(genetically) and his son (\"born\" through the action of the original). \nAnd Pas is the (un)holy spirit - also the same.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-09-06T23:16:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Clones of the Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nutria posits:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Silk is a son of Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds:\nThis tact has merit. There are very good thematic reasons which you have not\nmentioned for Silk to be a son of Typhon and (the original) Echidna. But\nyour theory seems to be that he's the son of Kypris. There are arguments\nwith this theory, but I can quickly come up with responses to them as well.\nThe most tangible problem is that yours is more cumbersome than than the\nTyphon-clone theory. Still, I wonder if there's any suggestion of it in\nLemur's account of Typhon's family to Silk and Crane...\n\n\nNutria said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't recall [one of the Mainframe gods merging identies with the real\nGod] unless you're thinking of the Outsider as linked to someone in" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mainframe. Who? I thought the whole point was that the Outsider is ...\noutside.\n\nCrush responds:\nSilk says that Kypris has in a sense *become* the Outsider. If she were\nerased, then in time Thelxie would become Him. Silk says that Pike was\nenlightened; that he was promised help for the mantaeon. It would take some\nwork to lay out an elaborate proof of this but I assert that this occurred\nduring or before his sacrifice of the \"rabbit that he himself had bought.\"\nWell, who receives sacrifices of rabbits? Kypris, of course. The sacrifice\noccurred after his coupling with Rose.\n\nThis is another mark for your theory since it would make Silk, in a sense,\nthe son of the Outsider -- at least, having been *made* a son of the\nOutsider.\n\n\nNutria said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All of which is not to mention simple thematic parallels that may not\nindicate any kind of physical/psychical merging; and the possibility that\nthe Outsider's Spirit is creating bonds and \"mergings.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was once inclined to presume that Wolfe's thematic parrallels were\nprimarily of \"spiritual\" or \"thematic\" value. I've been convinced otherwise\nduring the last year. I don't think Wolfe works that way. Sometimes he has\nlittle jokes, but they are truely *little* jokes.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-06T23:16:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Clones of the Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 12:07 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nAs I see it, the chief benefit of the Typhon Clone explanation \noriginally\nput forward by Don is the number of narrative puzzles it answers, and \nthat\nit explains many of Wolfe's literary choices.\n\nIf you never wondered why Silk was invited to by the Mainframe \noperators to\nbe scanned and merged with Pas....\nor if it doesn't seem odd to you that Kypris, Echidna, and Scylla \nwould back\nas Calde' an obscure augur of the poorest mantaeon in a Whorl-city \nthat has\nrelinquished proper worship (human sacrifice...\nor if it is not striking to you that Silk has a \"typhonic\" beard\n(reddish-blonde) as Grave's (an important Wolfe source) called it in \n\"King\nJesus\"...\nor if any significance to Silk sharing in many of the same archetypal\nreferences as Pas and Typhon fly right by you...\n\n...well, then recognizing that Silk is a clone of Typhon would only\nconvolute things for you. If those bits seem peculiar or significant \nthen\nSilk-as-Typhon's-clone clears up a lot of things." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think it really is hard to ignore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The danger as I see it is that there are a lot merging and \nconfabulating of\nidentities in the Long Sun and it is too easy to try to resolve them \nall\nwith one more clone. Wolfe has shown himself too clever to over-use a\nsingle method let alone such an obvious one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with this but I do believe that in addition to Silk, it makes \nperfect sense for Typhon to have placed his family on the Whorl in \nembryonic form, considering that he took the time to have the nasty \nbuggers uploaded as gods in the first place. Whether GW has taken the \nnarrative time to have them all in tBotLS is another matter. \nRegardless, that would only be their secondary identity, just as Silk \nis not really the Typhon that Severian meets. I think that Wolfe's \nwork defies simple reductionism: Silk may be Typhon but he is still \nSilk, just as we all carry many metaphors throughout our existence. \nEven if there were only ten actual characters in the entire cycle \n(something I don't believe) and every other character was a clone or \ncopy of these ten it would only be one level of a very rich narrative. \nThe real onion is in it's layers.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-06T23:29:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Clones of the Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 04:16 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI was once inclined to presume that Wolfe's thematic parrallels were\nprimarily of \"spiritual\" or \"thematic\" value. I've been convinced \notherwise\nduring the last year. I don't think Wolfe works that way. Sometimes he \nhas\nlittle jokes, but they are truely *little* jokes.\n\n-- Crush" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like the moon being made of green cheese in tBotNS.\n\nirrelevantly yours\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-09-08T13:33:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Clones of the Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don D. wrote:\nYes, but (according to orthodoxy) the Father and the Son are the same." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it's a little more complex than that. They are One, but not The Same.\nThat is, they are distinct persons who share a single substance, being, and\nGodhead. I'm not prepared to explain all that right now, but that's the \nactual\northodox Catholic - and, I'm pretty sure, the orthodox Orthodox - position.\n\n--Dan'l" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-09T01:15:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Clones of the Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, September 8, 2003, at 06:33 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDon D. wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, but (according to orthodoxy) the Father and the Son are the \nsame." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, it's a little more complex than that. They are One, but not The \nSame.\nThat is, they are distinct persons who share a single substance, \nbeing, and\nGodhead. I'm not prepared to explain all that right now, but that's \nthe actual\northodox Catholic - and, I'm pretty sure, the orthodox Orthodox - \nposition.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let me rephrase and hopefully not bumble:\n\nThey are different aspects but the Son is God, not of a lesser order \nand there are not two Gods, or three including the Holy Spirit. It's \nGod as the Father, God as the Son, and God as Love, but always the big \nG. Not Zeus, Apollo, and Eros(first one to my mind) though I guess GW \nis tying all gods to the Godhead (isn't that CS Lewis' argument? \nPaganism paving the way?). But that's the analogy I was shooting for \nand the only way I can see that working in the corporeal world is \nthrough Pas, Typhon and Silk having the same base identity.\n\nDon" } ] } ] }