Subject: Re: (urth) Clones of the Long Sun

From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 19:07:23 +0000

As I see it, the chief benefit of the Typhon Clone explanation originally
put forward by Don is the number of narrative puzzles it answers, and that
it explains many of Wolfe's literary choices.

If you never wondered why Silk was invited to by the Mainframe operators to
be scanned and merged with Pas....
or if it doesn't seem odd to you that Kypris, Echidna, and Scylla would back
as Calde' an obscure augur of the poorest mantaeon in a Whorl-city that has
relinquished proper worship (human sacrifice...
or if it is not striking to you that Silk has a "typhonic" beard
(reddish-blonde) as Grave's (an important Wolfe source) called it in "King
Jesus"...
or if any significance to Silk sharing in many of the same archetypal
references as Pas and Typhon fly right by you...

...well, then recognizing that Silk is a clone of Typhon would only
convolute things for you. If those bits seem peculiar or significant then
Silk-as-Typhon's-clone clears up a lot of things.

The danger as I see it is that there are a lot merging and confabulating of
identities in the Long Sun and it is too easy to try to resolve them all
with one more clone.  Wolfe has shown himself too clever to over-use a
single method let alone such an obvious one. First he has bios merging with
chems,  and then separately he has chems merging with bios. He has a boy
merging with his teacher. He has Mainframe gods merging in various ways with
humanity, and according to Silk, one of them merging identies with the real
God. He has an alien monster merging self-interest with the best attributes
of humanity to the point that he became a saintly old man sacrificing his
life to guide his people to Green so they can be food so his race can
further internalize humanity. In the NS we have people merging with an alien
monster by being devoured and people merging with people through eating them
(once again self-interest merged with altruism as the beast gave its life to
protect its food/family).  In tFHoC we have clones, yes, but we also have
alien "abos" becoming and replacing humans (has anyone pointed out that VRT
and Number 5 share dreams as though they are twins?).

I'm not sure yet why or how Auk is Silk or Severian. But I doubt it will be
only another clone. It will be some new method or a clever twist on some
method already used.

-- Crush

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 22:31:41 +0000

>be scanned and merged with Pas....

         I'm not anticlone, but my own guess when I read the books, which 
I'll offer for rebuttal, is that Silk is a son of Typhon. In Mainframe, 
Goodpas, Silk, and Kypris form a model of the Trinity, with Kypris as Love 
(and Love is the Holy Spirit in Augustinian theology). And it appears to me 
that Silk as a son of Pas would just as well account for the other things 
you listed, though perhaps not for everything that Don or someone else 

>relinquished proper worship (human sacrifice...

sure, Silk is the son. Biblically, the Father intends to make the Son into 

>references as Pas and Typhon fly right by you...

would a father-son relationship account for these? If Wolfe had in mind 
that the Trinity is One as well as Three, the identity of archetypes could 
be accounted for that way, perhaps.

>with one more clone.

Yes. That's been my reservation also.

>  Wolfe has shown himself too clever to over-use a
>merging with his teacher. He has Mainframe gods merging in various ways 
>with humanity, and according to Silk, one of them merging identies with 
>the real God.

Don't recall this, unless you're thinking of the Outsider as linked to 
someone in Mainframe. Who? I thought the whole point was that the Outsider 
is ... outside.

>  He has an alien monster merging self-interest with the best attributes
>further internalize humanity.

Very interesting spin on Q. I like it.

>In the NS we have people merging with an alien
>monster by being devoured and people merging with people through eating 
>them (once again self-interest merged with altruism as the beast gave its 
>life to protect its food/family).

All of which is not to mention simple thematic parallels that may not 
indicate any kind of physical/psychical merging; and the possibility that 
the Outsider's Spirit is creating bonds and "mergings."

FWIW

Nutria

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From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 22:49:18 +0000

On Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 03:31 PM, James Jordan wrote:

>         I'm not anticlone, but my own guess when I read the books, 
> which I'll offer for rebuttal, is that Silk is a son of Typhon. In 
> Mainframe, Goodpas, Silk, and Kypris form a model of the Trinity, with 
> Kypris as Love (and Love is the Holy Spirit in Augustinian theology). 
> And it appears to me that Silk as a son of Pas would just as well 
> account for the other things you listed, though perhaps not for 
> everything that Don or someone else might point out:
>

Yes, but (according to orthodoxy)  the Father and the Son are the same. 
  As I pointed out, by making Silk a clone of Typhon he is both Typhon 
(genetically) and his son ("born" through the action of the original).  
And Pas is the (un)holy spirit - also the same.

Don

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 23:16:35 +0000

Nutria posits:
>  Silk is a son of Typhon.

Crush responds:
This tact has merit. There are very good thematic reasons which you have not
mentioned for Silk to be a son of Typhon and (the original) Echidna. But
your theory seems to be that he's the son of Kypris. There are arguments
with this theory, but I can quickly come up with responses to them as well.
The most tangible problem is that yours is more cumbersome than than the
Typhon-clone theory. Still, I wonder if there's any suggestion of it in
Lemur's account of Typhon's family to Silk and Crane...

Nutria said:
> Don't recall [one of the Mainframe gods merging identies with the real
God]  unless you're thinking of the Outsider as linked to someone in
Mainframe. Who? I thought the whole point was that the Outsider is ...
outside.

Crush responds:
Silk says that Kypris has in a sense *become* the Outsider. If she were
erased, then in time Thelxie would become Him. Silk says that Pike was
enlightened; that he was promised help for the mantaeon. It would take some
work to lay out an elaborate proof of this but I assert that this occurred
during or before his sacrifice of the "rabbit that he himself had bought."
Well, who receives sacrifices of rabbits? Kypris, of course. The sacrifice
occurred after his coupling with Rose.

This is another mark for your theory since it would make Silk, in a sense,
the son of the Outsider -- at least, having been *made* a son of the
Outsider.

> the Outsider's Spirit is creating bonds and "mergings."

I was once inclined to presume that Wolfe's thematic parrallels were
primarily of "spiritual" or "thematic" value. I've been convinced otherwise
during the last year. I don't think Wolfe works that way. Sometimes he has
little jokes, but they are truely *little* jokes.

-- Crush

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From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 23:16:51 +0000

> Silk-as-Typhon's-clone clears up a lot of things.
Yes, I think it really is hard to ignore.

> single method let alone such an obvious one.
>

I agree with this but I do believe that in addition to Silk, it makes 
perfect sense for Typhon to have placed his family on the Whorl in 
embryonic form, considering that he took the time to have the nasty 
buggers uploaded as gods in the first place.  Whether GW has taken the 
narrative time to have them all in tBotLS is another matter.  
Regardless, that would only be their secondary identity, just as Silk 
is not really the Typhon that Severian meets.  I think that Wolfe's 
work defies simple reductionism:   Silk may be Typhon but he is still 
Silk, just as we all carry many metaphors throughout our existence.  
Even if there were only ten actual characters in the entire cycle 
(something I don't believe) and every other character was a clone or 
copy of these ten it would only be one level of a very rich narrative.  
The real onion is in it's layers.

Don

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From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 23:29:35 +0000

> little jokes, but they are truely *little* jokes.

Like the moon being made of green cheese in tBotNS.

irrelevantly yours
Don

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <katbarx at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 13:33:36 +0000

>Yes, but (according to orthodoxy)  the Father and the Son are the same.

Well, it's a little more complex than that. They are One, but not The Same.
That is, they are distinct persons who share a single substance, being, and
Godhead. I'm not prepared to explain all that right now, but that's the 
actual
orthodox Catholic - and, I'm pretty sure, the orthodox Orthodox - position.

--Dan'l

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From: Don Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 01:15:08 +0000

On Monday, September 8, 2003, at 06:33 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

> Godhead. I'm not prepared to explain all that right now, but that's 
> the actual

Let me rephrase and hopefully not bumble:

They are different aspects but the Son is God, not of a lesser order 
and there are not two Gods, or three including the Holy Spirit.  It's 
God as the Father, God as the Son, and God as Love, but always the big 
G.  Not Zeus, Apollo, and Eros(first one to my mind) though I guess GW 
is tying all gods to the Godhead (isn't that CS Lewis' argument? 
Paganism paving the way?).  But that's the analogy I was shooting for 
and the only way I can see that working in the corporeal world is 
through Pas, Typhon and Silk having the same base identity.

Don

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