{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4208", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4208, "subject": "has anyone read this book?", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-09-07T01:20:08+00:00", "last": "2003-09-07T20:27:53+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-07T01:20:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) has anyone read this book?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.catastrophism.com/cdrom/pubs/books/saturn/\n\nAll this site shows is the table of contents and a synopsis but I'd bet \ndollars GW has read it. Anyone know anything about it? My reading \nlist is hopelessly backed up." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-09-07T02:07:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) has anyone read this book?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 2003-09-06 at 18:20, Lisa Schaffer-Doggett wrote:\nhttp://www.catastrophism.com/cdrom/pubs/books/saturn/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All this site shows is the table of contents and a synopsis but I'd bet \ndollars GW has read it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What evidence do you have that Wolfe has ever bought into this kind of\nVelikovskite claptrap?\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-07T01:41:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) has anyone read this book?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 07:07 PM, Josh Geller wrote:\nOn Sat, 2003-09-06 at 18:20, Lisa Schaffer-Doggett wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://www.catastrophism.com/cdrom/pubs/books/saturn/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All this site shows is the table of contents and a synopsis but I'd \nbet\ndollars GW has read it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What evidence do you have that Wolfe has ever bought into this kind of\nVelikovskite claptrap?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oooh, elaborate please. I know nothing about any of this stuff. I was \njust intrigued by the table of contents. If it's too much bs for the \nlist send it off list.\n\ncuriously\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-09-07T02:25:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) has anyone read this book?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 2003-09-06 at 18:41, Lisa Schaffer-Doggett wrote:\nOn Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 07:07 PM, Josh Geller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sat, 2003-09-06 at 18:20, Lisa Schaffer-Doggett wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "http://www.catastrophism.com/cdrom/pubs/books/saturn/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "All this site shows is the table of contents and a synopsis but I'd \nbet\ndollars GW has read it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What evidence do you have that Wolfe has ever bought into this kind of\nVelikovskite claptrap?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oooh, elaborate please. I know nothing about any of this stuff. I was \njust intrigued by the table of contents. If it's too much bs for the \nlist send it off list." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very briefly: in \"Hamlet's Mill\", Santillana and Dechend describe the\ntechnical vocabulary of myth, an ancient and extremely widespread\nastronomically based terminology. A number of people have, in the past,\npreviously noticed bits of this terminology and come to wrong \nconclusions. Immanuel Velikovsky is the most famous of these. He \ncombined his reading of ancient texts with an aggressive ignorance\nof both physics and the characteristics of reality to present a\nversion of history that had an immense comet being emitted by Jupiter,\nhaving several close encounters with the Earth, and eventually \nsettling down to be the planet Venus.\n\nI think Velikovsky is dead (he'd be like 100 if he wasn't), but he\nhas many followers, each and every one of them as colorfully and\nlogically insane as he was. This guy is obviously one of them; he\nbears the marks.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-09-07T20:27:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) has anyone read this book?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:20 PM 9/6/2003, you wrote:\nhttp://www.catastrophism.com/cdrom/pubs/books/saturn/\n\nAll this site shows is the table of contents and a synopsis but I'd bet \ndollars GW has read it. Anyone know anything about it? My reading list \nis hopelessly backed up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " It's post-Velikhovskian hyper-Velikhovskian stuff. Astral \ncatastrophism. All kinds of material explicable on other grounds is put \ntogether to argue that the planets were moving all around the solar system \nin the ancient world. I know the book from some studies a few years ago. It \nwas pretty obscure then. I seriously doubt GW knows of it or would care.\n GW, now, IS open to historical revisionism. He likes Barry Fell's \nbooks about the Phoenician, etc., visits/explorations of the Western \ncontinents (the Americas). He's interested in other chronological and \ncultural revisionism of the ancient world history, which after all (despite \none article after another that parrots the same thing), is in fact all that \ncertain. There are, for instance, good arguments for shifting the date of \nthe fall of Troy to about 800 BC, thus revitalizing the story of Aeneas's \nfounding of proto-Rome. (See *Centuries of Darkness* by James).\n But I seriously doubt if GW is interested in astral catastrophism.\n While I'm at it, I think it would be well to remember when rooting \naround for sources for GW's stuff, that his main source is the Bible and \nChurch history. I don't doubt that he has drawn motifs from Graves, and \nmaybe from Santillana, but the Bible contains a lot of the same motifs and \nsymbolism, and in the form Wolfe sees as foundational and authoritative. \nWolfe need go no farther than the Bible to see four-faced cherubim as \nguardians of doors, or to find four great empire-ruling monsters arising \nfrom the sea (Daniel chapter 7).\n I'm not denying other sources. But I recall when I asked GW about \nBriah and Yesod, and asked about the rest of the Qabbala worlds, that he \nreplied that he had just grabbed those two words out and used them for his \nown narrative. I'm not sure his use of Quetzl(acoatl) is any more than just \nthe use of the name and a couple of common associations (serpentgod from \nelsewhere), for his own purposes. I don't know for sure, but I wonder if \nreading up on Aztec/Mayan myths in detail is going to illuminate what GW \nactually intended.\n This is just a caution about assuming too much, and/or ranging too \nfar in seeking for sources for things in the books.\n FWIW.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }