{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/421", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 421, "subject": "Hethor", "messages": 8, "voices": 4, "first": "1998-03-14T11:28:47+00:00", "last": "1998-05-14T07:57:54+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1998-03-14T11:28:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As you know, I consider \"Kimleesoong\" to be the most likely answer to\nthe question of \"What is Hethor's true and secret name?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As a p.s. to this (though I reserve my right to not necessarily agree with\nit), \"Hethor\" is an extremely puzzling name. Nearly all the NS names can be\ntraced (mantis can quickly tell you what few can't), but I went though hoops\ntrying to track this one, with no results. (Please don't invoke Egyptian\nHathor; it doesn't compute.)\n\n-alga-" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.geis.com" }, "date": "1998-03-14T19:59:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reply: Item #3560425 from URTH at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET03#\n\n\"BEOCCA AND HETHOR, monks and martyrs of Chertsey (Surrey), killed by\nthe Danes in 870. The memory of these monks, supposed to be as many\nas ninety, was kept alive in fragmentary chronicles and by William of\nMalmesbury. Their deaths, like those of monks of Peterborough,\nBardney, Ely, and Crowland, were believed to be the work of the same\nDanish army as that which killed Edmund of East Anglia. It seems\nunlikely that the number of the monks concerned is accurate. Feast:\n10 April.\n\"G.P., p. 143; R.P.S.; C.S.P.\" (THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF SAINTS,\nthird edition).\n\n;)\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1998-03-15T19:25:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"BEOCCA AND HETHOR, monks and martyrs of Chertsey (Surrey), killed by\nthe Danes in 870. The memory of these monks, supposed to be as many\nas ninety, was kept alive in fragmentary chronicles and by William of\nMalmesbury. Their deaths, like those of monks of Peterborough,\nBardney, Ely, and Crowland, were believed to be the work of the same\nDanish army as that which killed Edmund of East Anglia. It seems\nunlikely that the number of the monks concerned is accurate. Feast:\n10 April.\n\"G.P., p. 143; R.P.S.; C.S.P.\" (THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF SAINTS,\nthird edition)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, GDItH, I own that book, that edition, and I feel absolutely cheated\nthat it's under \"B!\" Jeez, is there no justice? But seriously, this is a\nclue that it is a false name. Hethor should not have a saint's name; like\nJonas he could have a biblical name, or he could have a \"modern\" name,\nbiblical or not. This is the first time I have considered Kimleesoong\nseriously as his name. Hmmmm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is talk in UotNS of sailors getting older, younger, or just staying\nthe\nsame forever, but that is on the ship of Tzadkiel and not Urth. It could be\nthat Hethor found himself in the antichamber, but was able to escape with\nhis\npowers of thaumatugy (after fathering children, or whatever), and then\nperhaps\nspent more time in space before coming back to Urth in Severian's era." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am sure this is true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, Jonas and Hethor (if KLS is indeed his real name) are both\nKorean,\nbut they served on different ships, or did they?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jonas is Korean? How so?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are the Quasar and Fortunate Cloud the same?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They can't be. Wolfe plays lots of tricks, but not that kind of tricks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incidentally, Severian says to the Hierodules (Famulimus, Babatus, and\nOssipago) that Hethor never mentioned his ship's name, but he did, and it\nwas\nthe Quasar. So whose memory is at fault here, Severian or Wolfe's?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmmm. I know you're right, but citation please. (chapter, since we've all\ngot different editions.\n\n-alga-" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "C R Culver", "address": "crculver at aol.com" }, "date": "1998-03-16T03:55:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alga said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonas is Korean? How so?<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He certainly speaks Korean. See the description of his feverish ramblings in\nthe Antechamber. Severian notes that Jonas was talking in a nasal,\nmonosyllabic language. Korean is such a language, almost every word ends in a\nnasal consonant or a vowel, and there are no two-syllable words as such.\nHowever, the language could also be Chinese. It's possible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmmmm. I know you're right, but citation please.<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I pulled out my battered citation-copy of _Shadow_, and it wasn't where\nI thought it would be! I assumed Hethor mentioned it in his babblings before\nthe actors in the last chapter, but it appears I was wrong. I'll go check to\nsee if it's in some other places soon. However, it comes to me now that,\nalthough Hethor mentioned it, the Quasar might not have been his ship. I\nbelieve he mentioned his ship passed the Quasar in the void, I'll sort it out.\n\nI imagined:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are the Quasar and Fortunate Cloud the same?<\nAlga retaliated:\nThey can't be. Wolfe plays lots of tricks, but not that kind of tricks.<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I could respond that Wolfe has hinted that all interstellar ships are\nthe Ship of Tzadkiel, but I don't think he had that idea in mind when he\ntalked of Jonas and Hethor. What would Hethor have done on the SoT anyway?\nPerhaps it is there he got his experience with mirrors, if he truly worked on\nthe Ship.\n\nI hypothesized:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and then perhaps spent more time in space before coming back to Urth in\nSeverian's era.<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Alga responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am sure this is true.<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'd love to know who helped him get off the planet after the fall of the\nMonarchy and human endeavours in space. I imagine that Abaia might have gotten\nhim off Urth by the same method he uses to let the undines \"swim the void.\"\n\nChristopher R. Culver \nhttp://members.aol.com/crculver/index.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.geis.com" }, "date": "1998-03-16T15:01:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reply: Item #5234791 from URTH at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET03#\n\nalga,\n\nRe: OXFORD BOOK OF SAINTS, yes, I remembered your practice of judging\na reference book by its index (or lack thereof) and muttered an oath\nagainst OBOS for not having an index and not being adequately\ncross-referenced--\"Savas (Sabas)\" has no pointer at \"Sabas,\" for\nexample.\n\nBut otherwise, a lot of this stuff is in the Lexicon, under \"Hethor.\"\n(The main clue that \"Hethor\" is not his true name is given point\nblank by Agia; but yes, you are right that the rules of Wolfean\nnaming provide corroboration--I hadn't thought of that before.)\n\n=mantis=\n\nP.S. Hethor's most lucid babbling happens within a dream of\nSeverian's rather than in waking action." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "C R Culver", "address": "crculver at aol.com" }, "date": "1998-03-16T19:57:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "P.S. Hethor's most lucid babbling happens within a dream of\nSeverian's rather than in waking action.<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So Severian is hallucinating someone babbling? Hmm, is this Wolfe's way to\nthrow some of the Christian phenomenon of glossolalia in there? I don't\nbelieve it shows up anywhere else in the BotNS.\n\nThe only problem with saying it is this is that documented glossolalia (almost\nalways) has a vowel-consonant ratio of 1:1 and is polysyllabic, nasal\nconsonants don't show up much either.\n\nI still think it was Korean.\n\nChristopher R. Culver \nhttp://members.aol.com/crculver/index.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Dye", "address": "raster at highfiber.com" }, "date": "1998-03-17T08:19:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "C R Culver writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hmmmm. I know you're right, but citation please.<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I pulled out my battered citation-copy of _Shadow_, and it wasn't where\nI thought it would be! I assumed Hethor mentioned it in his babblings before\nthe actors in the last chapter, but it appears I was wrong. I'll go check to\nsee if it's in some other places soon. However, it comes to me now that,\nalthough Hethor mentioned it, the Quasar might not have been his ship. I\nbelieve he mentioned his ship passed the Quasar in the void, I'll sort it out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's Hethor's very first line, in Chapter 30 of Shadow. \"M-m-master, when I\nwas on the _Quasar_ I had a paracoita ....\"\n\nraster at highfiber.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1998-05-14T07:57:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, and I'm thinking Robin Williams for Hethor. He wouldn't even have to\nrehearse.\n\n-alga-" } ] } ] }