Subject: (urth) Hethor

From: Alice Turner <al at interport.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 11:28:47 +0000

[Posted from URTH, a mailing list about Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works]

>
>As you know, I consider "Kimleesoong" to be the most likely answer to
>the question of "What is Hethor's true and secret name?"

As a p.s. to this (though I reserve my right to not necessarily agree with
it), "Hethor" is an extremely puzzling name. Nearly all the NS names can be
traced (mantis can quickly tell you what few can't), but I went though hoops
trying to track this one, with no results. (Please don't invoke Egyptian
Hathor; it doesn't compute.)

-alga-

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

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From: m.driussi <m.driussi at genie.geis.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:59:00 +0000

Reply:  Item #3560425 from URTH at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET03#

"BEOCCA AND HETHOR, monks and martyrs of Chertsey (Surrey), killed by
the Danes in 870.  The memory of these monks, supposed to be as many
as ninety, was kept alive in fragmentary chronicles and by William of
Malmesbury.  Their deaths, like those of monks of Peterborough,
Bardney, Ely, and Crowland, were believed to be the work of the same
Danish army as that which killed Edmund of East Anglia.  It seems
unlikely that the number of the monks concerned is accurate.  Feast:
10 April.
"G.P., p. 143; R.P.S.; C.S.P." (THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF SAINTS,
third edition).

;)

=mantis=

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From: Alice Turner <al at interport.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 19:25:12 +0000

mantis,

>"G.P., p. 143; R.P.S.; C.S.P." (THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF SAINTS,

Well, GDItH, I own that book, that edition, and I feel absolutely cheated
that it's under "B!"  Jeez, is there no justice? But seriously, this is a
clue that it is a false name. Hethor should not have a saint's name; like
Jonas he could have a biblical name, or he could have a "modern" name,
biblical or not. This is the first time I have considered Kimleesoong
seriously as his name. Hmmmm.

>There is talk in UotNS of sailors getting older, younger, or just staying
the
>same forever, but that is on the ship of Tzadkiel and not Urth. It could be
>that Hethor found himself in the antichamber, but was able to escape with
his
>powers of thaumatugy (after fathering children, or whatever), and then
perhaps
>spent more time in space before coming back to Urth in Severian's era.

I am sure this is true.

>Of course, Jonas and Hethor (if KLS is indeed his real name) are both
Korean,
>but they served on different ships, or did they?

Jonas is Korean? How so?

>Are the Quasar and Fortunate Cloud the same?

They can't be. Wolfe plays lots of tricks, but not that kind of tricks.

 >Incidentally, Severian says to the Hierodules (Famulimus, Babatus, and
>Ossipago) that Hethor never mentioned his ship's name, but he did, and it
was
>the Quasar. So whose memory is at fault here, Severian or Wolfe's?

Hmmmm. I know you're right, but citation please. (chapter, since we've all
got different editions.

-alga-

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From: C R Culver <crculver at aol.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 03:55:20 +0000

Alga said:
>Jonas is Korean? How so?<

He certainly speaks Korean. See the description of his feverish ramblings in
the Antechamber. Severian notes that Jonas was talking in a nasal,
monosyllabic language. Korean is such a language, almost every word ends in a
nasal consonant or a vowel, and there are no two-syllable words as such.
However, the language could also be Chinese. It's possible.

>Hmmmm. I know you're right, but citation please.<

Well, I pulled out my battered citation-copy of _Shadow_, and it wasn't where
I thought it would be! I assumed Hethor mentioned it in his babblings before
the actors in the last chapter, but it appears I was wrong. I'll go check to
see if it's in some other places soon. However, it comes to me now that,
although Hethor mentioned it, the Quasar might not have been his ship. I
believe he mentioned his ship passed the Quasar in the void, I'll sort it out.

I imagined:
>Are the Quasar and Fortunate Cloud the same?<
Alga retaliated:
>They can't be. Wolfe plays lots of tricks, but not that kind of tricks.<

Well, I could respond that Wolfe has hinted that all interstellar ships are
the Ship of Tzadkiel, but I don't think he had that idea in mind when he
talked of Jonas and Hethor. What would Hethor have done on the SoT anyway?
Perhaps it is there he got his experience with mirrors, if he truly worked on
the Ship.

I hypothesized:
>and then perhaps spent more time in space before coming back to Urth in
Severian's era.<
And Alga responded:
>I am sure this is true.<

Well, I'd love to know who helped him get off the planet after the fall of the
Monarchy and human endeavours in space. I imagine that Abaia might have gotten
him off Urth by the same method he uses to let the undines "swim the void."

Christopher R. Culver <crculver at aol.com>
http://members.aol.com/crculver/index.html

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From: m.driussi <m.driussi at genie.geis.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:01:00 +0000

Reply:  Item #5234791 from URTH at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET03#

alga,

Re: OXFORD BOOK OF SAINTS, yes, I remembered your practice of judging
a reference book by its index (or lack thereof) and muttered an oath
against OBOS for not having an index and not being adequately
cross-referenced--"Savas (Sabas)" has no pointer at "Sabas," for
example.

But otherwise, a lot of this stuff is in the Lexicon, under "Hethor."
(The main clue that "Hethor" is not his true name is given point
blank by Agia; but yes, you are right that the rules of Wolfean
naming provide corroboration--I hadn't thought of that before.)

=mantis=

P.S. Hethor's most lucid babbling happens within a dream of
Severian's rather than in waking action.

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From: C R Culver <crculver at aol.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:57:27 +0000

>P.S. Hethor's most lucid babbling happens within a dream of
Severian's rather than in waking action.<

So Severian is hallucinating someone babbling? Hmm, is this Wolfe's way to
throw some of the Christian phenomenon of glossolalia in there? I don't
believe it shows up anywhere else in the BotNS.

The only problem with saying it is this is that documented glossolalia (almost
always) has a vowel-consonant ratio of 1:1 and is polysyllabic, nasal
consonants don't show up much either.

I still think it was Korean.

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From: Charles Dye <raster at highfiber.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:19:26 +0000

>believe he mentioned his ship passed the Quasar in the void, I'll sort it out.

It's Hethor's very first line, in Chapter 30 of Shadow.  "M-m-master, when I
was on the _Quasar_ I had a paracoita ...."

raster at highfiber.com

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From: Alice Turner <al at interport.net>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 07:57:54 +0000

Oh, and I'm thinking Robin Williams for Hethor. He wouldn't even have to
rehearse.

-alga-