{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4210", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4210, "subject": "Typhon's folly?", "messages": 8, "voices": 6, "first": "2003-09-08T05:48:14+00:00", "last": "2003-09-09T16:18:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-09-08T05:48:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's folly?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Last month mantis suggested that the reason Typhon built the _Whorl_ was as\na hedge against the possible failure of his plans for a new empire. Maybe\nso. Over the years there have been two main schools of thought on what--make\nthat \"who\"-- caused the black hole in Urth's sun. Some have held that it was\ncaused by, or at the behest of, the Increate, as punishment for the past\nsins of the Old Empire. Others hold that Typhon was somehow the cause. I\nhave argued in the past for the first theory; now I want to explore the\nother possibility; not the mechanics of it, but how it may relate to the LS\nand SS books.\n\nWe don't know just how big the _Whorl_ was, but it was huge. Its long axis\nhad to have been hundreds of miles long. It would have taken tremendous\namounts of energy just to hollow out a rock that big, to say nothing of the\nresources consumed by the landscaping of the interior, the construction of\ncities, Mainframe, the Long Sun and all the other provisioning. I think it\nhas been suggested before, by others, that Typhon somehow tapped the sun for\nenergy in furtherance of his plans for empire, and that it was his tampering\nwith the sun that caused its decline. I am suggesting that he tapped the sun\nfor the energy needed to build the _Whorl_.\n\nIf mantis is right about Typhon building the _Whorl_ as a hedge against the\nfailure of his plans for empire, then the irony is that his fall-back\nposition led ultimately to that failure. With the decline of the sun came\ncrop failures, a revolt of the masses, his desertion by his most trusted\nlieutenants and, eventually, his death, alone, behind that curtain on the\nmountain that bore his likeness.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-09-08T05:52:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon's folly?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Sun is rather bigger, of the order of a million miles across, 100 times\nwider than the Earth. No perceptable fraction of its energy could have been\nneeded up to reshape the Whorl or indeed to vaporise it.\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nWe don't know just how big the _Whorl_ was, but it was huge. Its long axis\nhad to have been hundreds of miles long." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Spectacled Bear", "address": "spectacled.bear at pobox.com" }, "date": "2003-09-08T13:16:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon's folly?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 06:52 2003-09-08, Andy Robertson wrote:\nThe Sun is rather bigger, of the order of a million miles across, 100 times\nwider than the Earth. No perceptable fraction of its energy could have been\nneeded up to reshape the Whorl or indeed to vaporise it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. But a small black hole would be a most excellent thing\nfor hollowing out an asteroid. Of course, you would have to be\ncareful not to drop it...\n\nSpectacled Bear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nWe don't know just how big the _Whorl_ was, but it was huge. Its long axis\nhad to have been hundreds of miles long.\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-09-08T12:48:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon's folly?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nontheless, I really think we are missing something here.\n\nWolfe talks at one point of \"local\" \"solar\" and \"galactic\" levels of\ntechnology, right?\n\nI think the fundamental significance of the Whorl is that it is a\nstarcrosser built be \"solar\" technology. It does not have the almost\nexistential structure and function of the Ship. It is complex and full of\nwheels, not simple enough for a star-sailor to handle. It is bounded\nwithin the world of relativity, where events must follow one sequence (for\nWolfe clearly understands that FTL = time machine and therefore that the\nShip can travel back and forth in time).\n\nIn Wolfe, technology always has a symbolic function. The \"galactic\"\nlevels of tech actually merge into the machineries of the Increate. The\nfailure of Typhon to attain this level of being is signalled by the flaws\nand malfunctions of his creation.\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Spectacled Bear\" \nTrue. But a small black hole would be a most excellent thing\nfor hollowing out an asteroid. Of course, you would have to be\ncareful not to drop it..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-09T01:25:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon's folly?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Sunday, September 7, 2003, at 10:48 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\n\n\n I think it" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "has been suggested before, by others, that Typhon somehow tapped the \nsun for\nenergy in furtherance of his plans for empire, and that it was his \ntampering\nwith the sun that caused its decline. I am suggesting that he tapped \nthe sun\nfor the energy needed to build the _Whorl_.\n\nIf mantis is right about Typhon building the _Whorl_ as a hedge \nagainst the\nfailure of his plans for empire, then the irony is that his fall-back\nposition led ultimately to that failure. With the decline of the sun \ncame\ncrop failures, a revolt of the masses, his desertion by his most \ntrusted\nlieutenants and, eventually, his death, alone, behind that curtain on \nthe\nmountain that bore his likeness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, September 8, 2003, at 05:48 AM, Andy Robertson wrote:\nNontheless, I really think we are missing something here.\n\nWolfe talks at one point of \"local\" \"solar\" and \"galactic\" levels of\ntechnology, right?\n\nI think the fundamental significance of the Whorl is that it is a\nstarcrosser built be \"solar\" technology. It does not have the almost\nexistential structure and function of the Ship. It is complex and \nfull of\nwheels, not simple enough for a star-sailor to handle. It is bounded\nwithin the world of relativity, where events must follow one sequence \n(for\nWolfe clearly understands that FTL = time machine and therefore that \nthe\nShip can travel back and forth in time).\n\nIn Wolfe, technology always has a symbolic function. The \"galactic\"\nlevels of tech actually merge into the machineries of the Increate. \nThe\nfailure of Typhon to attain this level of being is signalled by the \nflaws\nand malfunctions of his creation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don adds:\nI think Roy is right but not quite in the way he intended. Typhon did \ncause the black hole through his misuse of solar technology but it was \nthe hieros I think who put it there in order to punish his hubris and \nprotect their interests. A dying sun won't build a solar powered \nempire and the symbolic effects would be devastating. As they \nobviously were." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-09-09T15:03:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon's folly?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 08/09/2003 06:52:33 \"Andy Robertson\" wrote:\nThe Sun is rather bigger, of the order of a million miles across, 100 \ntimes\nwider than the Earth. No perceptable fraction of its energy could have \nbeen\nneeded up to reshape the Whorl or indeed to vaporise it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy suggests that Typhon's tampering might have done the damage - the \nmeans emplyoyed to draw off energy rather than the amount of energay \nactually utilised.\n\nIn the venerable tradition of SF wand waving say a \"string\" taking energy \nfrom the sun to your asteroid working facility. Job done have shutdown \nfailure that collapses the string into a singularity. Scientifically it's \nnonsense yet plausible with a vigorous enough wand. In human terms it's \nentirely consistant with the type of mind that built nuclear power \nstations leaving shutdown and cleaning solutions to be developed when they \nmight be required.\n\nAs a narrative I like the concept. Within Wolfe's Urth I'd find it akward \nbecause it implies a technological sophistication that I don't believe \nTyphon had.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-09-09T15:45:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon's folly?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matthew says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy suggests that Typhon's tampering might have done the damage - the\nmeans emplyoyed to draw off energy rather than the amount of energay\nactually utilised." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Scientifically it's nonsense yet plausible with a vigorous enough wand." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As a narrative I like the concept. Within Wolfe's Urth I'd find it akward\nbecause it implies a technological sophistication that I don't believe\nTyphon had." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the concept fits thematically with Typhon's name and identification\nwith Set and all the other serpents that devoured the Sun during an eclipse.\nSo naturally the concept is attractive to me.\n\nOnce one presumes the technology to implant a black hole into a star, all\nbets are off for plausibility. It doesn't have to mean sending a beam of\n\"energy\" to where you want it ~ it could be some other method as\ninconceivable to us as power lines would be to someone in the 17th century.\n\nPropulsion/Mirror technology and Energy technology are not necessarily the\nsame thing. There is no need to believe that because Typhon did not have\naccess to one, that he did not have access to the other. Typhon himself\ndidn't seem to understand how this technology worked precisely himself.\n\nThe ancient Sumerians invented algebra, but never figured out papyrus or\nadvanced metallurgy. The Greeks made startling advances in astronomy\n(discovering heliocentricy, the Earth's spherical shape, and methods for\nmeasuring the distance to the moon and the circumference of the Earth) but\nnever developed a scientific method.\n\nIt's possibly due to my naiveté in practical science, but it never struck me\nas awkward.\n\nCrush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-09-09T16:18:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon's folly?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 09/09/2003 16:45:48 \"James Wynn\" wrote:\nIt's possibly due to my naiveté in practical science, but it never struck \nme\nas awkward." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could cause me to revise my conception of the Urth universe. You can \nbe sure I find that damn akward! :-)\n\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }