Subject: (urth) Typhon's folly?

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 05:48:14 +0000

Last month mantis suggested that the reason Typhon built the _Whorl_ was as
a hedge against the possible failure of his plans for a new empire. Maybe
so. Over the years there have been two main schools of thought on what--make
that "who"-- caused the black hole in Urth's sun. Some have held that it was
caused by, or at the behest of, the Increate, as punishment for the past
sins of the Old Empire. Others hold that Typhon was somehow the cause. I
have argued in the past for the first theory; now I want to explore the
other possibility; not the mechanics of it, but how it may relate to the LS
and SS books.

We don't know just how big the _Whorl_ was, but it was huge. Its long axis
had to have been hundreds of miles long. It would have taken tremendous
amounts of energy just to hollow out a rock that big, to say nothing of the
resources consumed by the landscaping of the interior, the construction of
cities, Mainframe, the Long Sun and all the other provisioning. I think it
has been suggested before, by others, that Typhon somehow tapped the sun for
energy in furtherance of his plans for empire, and that it was his tampering
with the sun that caused its decline. I am suggesting that he tapped the sun
for the energy needed to build the _Whorl_.

If mantis is right about Typhon building the _Whorl_ as a hedge against the
failure of his plans for empire, then the irony is that his fall-back
position led ultimately to that failure. With the decline of the sun came
crop failures, a revolt of the masses, his desertion by his most trusted
lieutenants and, eventually, his death, alone, behind that curtain on the
mountain that bore his likeness.

-Roy

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 05:52:33 +0000

The Sun is rather bigger, of the order of a million miles across, 100 times
wider than the Earth.  No perceptable fraction of its energy could have been
needed up to reshape the Whorl or indeed to vaporise it.

    hartshorn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net>
> had to have been hundreds of miles long.

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From: Spectacled Bear <spectacled.bear at pobox.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 13:16:03 +0000

>needed up to reshape the Whorl or indeed to vaporise it.

True. But a small black hole would be a most excellent thing
for hollowing out an asteroid. Of course, you would have to be
careful not to drop it...

Spectacled Bear.

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 12:48:15 +0000

Nontheless, I really think we are missing something here.

Wolfe talks at one point of "local"  "solar" and "galactic" levels of
technology, right?

I think the fundamental significance of the Whorl is that it is a
starcrosser built be "solar" technology.  It does not have the almost
existential structure and function of the Ship.  It is complex and full of
wheels, not simple enough for a star-sailor to handle.   It is bounded
within the world of relativity, where events must follow one sequence (for
Wolfe clearly understands that FTL = time machine and therefore that the
Ship can travel back and forth in time).

In Wolfe, technology always has a symbolic function.    The "galactic"
levels of tech actually merge into the machineries of the Increate.   The
failure of Typhon to attain this level of being is signalled by the flaws
and malfunctions of his creation.

    hartshorn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Spectacled Bear" <spectacled.bear at pobox.com>

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From: Don Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 01:25:17 +0000

On Sunday, September 7, 2003, at 10:48 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:

    I think it

> and malfunctions of his creation.

Don adds:
I think Roy is right but not quite in the way he intended.  Typhon did 
cause the black hole through his misuse of solar technology but it was 
the hieros  I think who put it there in order to punish his hubris and 
protect their interests.  A dying sun won't build a solar powered 
empire and the symbolic effects would be devastating.  As they 
obviously were.

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 15:03:44 +0000

>needed up to reshape the Whorl or indeed to vaporise it.

Roy suggests that Typhon's tampering might have done the damage - the 
means emplyoyed to draw off energy rather than the amount of energay 
actually utilised.

In the venerable tradition of SF wand waving say a "string" taking energy 
from the sun to your asteroid working facility.  Job done have  shutdown 
failure that collapses the string into a singularity.  Scientifically it's 
nonsense yet plausible with a vigorous enough wand.  In human terms it's 
entirely consistant with the type of mind that built nuclear power 
stations leaving shutdown and cleaning solutions to be developed when they 
might be required.

As a narrative I like the concept.  Within Wolfe's Urth I'd find it akward 
because it implies a technological sophistication that I don't believe 
Typhon had.

Matthew

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 15:45:48 +0000

> means emplyoyed to draw off energy rather than the amount of energay
....
> Scientifically it's nonsense yet plausible with a vigorous enough wand.
...
> because it implies a technological sophistication that I don't believe

Well, the concept fits thematically with Typhon's name and identification
with Set and all the other serpents that devoured the Sun during an eclipse.
So naturally the concept is attractive to me.

Once one presumes the technology to implant a black hole into a star, all
bets are off for plausibility. It doesn't have to mean sending a beam of
"energy" to where you want it ~ it could be some other method as
inconceivable to us as power lines would be to someone in the 17th century.

Propulsion/Mirror technology and Energy technology are not necessarily the
same thing. There is no need to believe that because Typhon did not have
access to one, that he did not have access to the other. Typhon himself
didn't seem to understand how this technology worked precisely himself.

The ancient Sumerians invented algebra, but never figured out papyrus or
advanced metallurgy. The Greeks made startling advances in astronomy
(discovering heliocentricy, the Earth's spherical shape, and methods for
measuring the distance to the moon and the circumference of the Earth) but
never developed a scientific method.

It's possibly due to my naiveté in practical science, but it never struck me
as awkward.

Crush

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 16:18:14 +0000

>It's possibly due to my naiveté in practical science, but it never struck 
me

It could cause me to revise my conception of the Urth universe.  You can 
be sure I find that damn akward!  :-)

Matthew

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