{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4212", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4212, "subject": "Clones and Old Suns and paving pagans", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2003-09-09T18:00:30+00:00", "last": "2003-09-11T03:26:32+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-09-09T18:00:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Clones and Old Suns and paving pagans", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don D writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They are different aspects but the Son is God, not of a lesser order and \nthere are not two Gods, or three including the Holy Spirit. It's God as \nthe Father, God as the Son, and God as Love, but always the big G." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I agree, cryptoaugustinially, with your characterization of the third\nPerson as \"Love,\" in that characterization the first two Persons are\ngenerally referred to as \"the Lover\" and \"the Beloved\" (and the third,\noften, as \"Love Itself\").\n\nAs long as we're being technical here, someone raised the Creeds. The\nCreed generally held to contain the most accurate formulation of doctrine\non the Trinity is the Athanasian Creed - which, oddly but not paradoxically,\ndoes not have anything to do with St Athanasius. The whole thing can be\nfound at\n\nhttp://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html\n\nbut the relevant portion to this discussion begins at verse 3:\n\n3. [...] we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;\n4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.\n5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and\n another of the Holy Spirit.\n6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy\n Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.\n7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.\n8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit\n uncreated.\n9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the\n Holy Spirit incomprehensible.\n\n[Interrupting: As someone once added, \"The whole damn thing\nincomprehensible.\"]\n\n10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.\n11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.\n12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible,\n but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.\n13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy\n Spirit almighty.\n14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.\n15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;\n16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.\n17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit\n Lord;\n18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.\n19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge\n every Person by himself to be God and Lord [...]\n\nAll of which suggests that the three Persons of the Trinity may\nindeed be what Wolfe had in mind for the identity of the Old Sun,\nno? At least, the above description seems to fit the other Suns\npretty well..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not Zeus, Apollo, and Eros(first one to my mind) though I guess GW is tying \nall gods to the Godhead (isn't that CS Lewis' argument? Paganism paving the \nway?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, though I think both Lewis and Wolfe use a bit more nuance\nthan that.\n\nWolfe, especially in the Latro (Latin, \"I worship\") books seems to\nbe suggesting that the pagan gods were real beings, and that\nperhaps to worship them prior to knowing the Christian God was\nnot in itself evil, and may even \"pave the way\" for accepting the\nOne God; but that they are, nonetheless, self-serving spirits -\nwhich in a Christian context makes them demons.\n\nLewis, in several novels but especially the \"Space Trilogy\" and his\nfinal (and finest) novel, _Till We Have Faces_, seems to suggest\nthat the pagan gods may be angelic beings or reflections of\nthe One God, sent, as you suggest, to \"pave the way\" for\nbelief in, and so knowingly serving, the One God.\n\nA significant difference, neh?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-09-11T03:26:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Clones and Old Suns and paving pagans", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, September 9, 2003, at 11:00 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nWolfe, especially in the Latro (Latin, \"I worship\") books seems to\nbe suggesting that the pagan gods were real beings, and that\nperhaps to worship them prior to knowing the Christian God was\nnot in itself evil, and may even \"pave the way\" for accepting the\nOne God; but that they are, nonetheless, self-serving spirits -\nwhich in a Christian context makes them demons.\n\nLewis, in several novels but especially the \"Space Trilogy\" and his\nfinal (and finest) novel, _Till We Have Faces_, seems to suggest\nthat the pagan gods may be angelic beings or reflections of\nthe One God, sent, as you suggest, to \"pave the way\" for\nbelief in, and so knowingly serving, the One God.\n\nA significant difference, neh?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed. It's easy for me to slip into generalities when I just pound \nout a reply on the old demon box. I blame a lifetime of television, \nsomething I plan to spend the last two thirds of my life (God willing) \nwithout." } ] } ] }