Subject: (urth) Women; Incomprehensible Three

From: Sikozu Johnson <sikozujohnson at cox.net>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 18:30:18 +0000

On Mardi, sept 9, 2003, at 11:00 US/Pacific, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: 
[Interrupting: As someone once added, "The whole damn thing 
incomprehensible."]

'The Incomprehensible Three' sounds like a jazz group.

Incidentally, to those who comment that Buddhism is confusing and 
mystical, I usually reply by asking them questions about the Trinity 
until such time as I am able to throw my hands in the air and say, "You 
think BUDDHISM is incomprehensible?!?" I figure they asked for it.

On a third note, there was some discussion before about women in Wolfe. 
Well, I must say that while I adore Wolfe, I find his 
Crypto-Catholicism and anti-feminism irritating. I have never met the 
man and can only stand in awe of his brilliant writing, but no one is 
perfect and sometimes he is boring or annoying: "Dorpspraak like Yoda 
annoying for hundreds of pages is" - or just angrymaking.

On women, he is angrymaking to me, if I may half-Dorp. His narrators so 
consistently paint a world in which women are either divine or divine 
bitches, and always incomprehensible, is very very aggravating. Long 
Sun and Short Sun beg for a half-decent female character who isn't 
crap. General Mint doesn't count, she is the virgin Joan of Arc, beyond 
humanity in person.

That's my opinion, held after rereading the books a few times. The 
women are stomach-churningly idolised or jammed in the mud, and the 
'good men' casually rape, murder and kill.

Anyway, I'm sure many will disagree, but as a woman that's what I got 
out of them. Not to say I don't adore them but Wolfe is clearly tied in 
knots about women somewhere and it comes out plain and clear to me.

Of course, my idea of a fun time is reading "Hothead Paisan", so take 
it with a grain of salt. ;-)

Sikozu
http://sikozu.blogspot.com/
http://members.cox.net/sikozujohnson/
******
"I sit for world revolution"
Alan Ginsberg, 19 July 1981

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <katbarx at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 18:42:44 +0000

Sikozu writes:

>That's my opinion, held after rereading the books a few times. The women 
>are stomach-churningly idolised or jammed in the mud, and the 'good men' 
>casually rape, murder and kill.

Well, of course, one might argue that this is the point - his "good"
men are stomach-churning, hellish people also. One and all - as near
as I can tell - his narrators are in desparate need of salvation. Even
those, like Silk and Severian, who bring it.

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 19:16:29 +0000

> ...there was some discussion before about women in Wolfe.
> Crypto-Catholicism and anti-feminism irritating...His narrators so

Well, as Horn said, you saw what you saw, but using the Long Sun as an
example, I have come to a much different conclusion.

Wolfe takes the stock stereo-types and puts them through facinating twists.

Rose is initially portrayed as your typical rudas, but then as the story
progresses we find she's a much more complex and ironic character. Mint is
your typical wilting virginal child, but in Calde we find that she is no
child; she's in her late 30s and is deeply questioning her choice of
vocation ~ like her mythological namesake she is literally being seduced by
Death. She's hardly defined by her virginity. If anything (like all the
sibyls) she exhibits all three aspects of Grave's White Goddess ~ sacred
virgin, killing nymph, and cthonic prophecying underworld bride of Death.

Siyuf is a termagant, but the leadership of Viron *and* Trivigaunte are
deliberately revolting characters. The Trivigaunte officers are competent,
professional, and sympathic characters.  Furthemore, IMO the twisted nature
of Trivigaunte culture represented by Siyuf is intended as a foil to have
the reader to take note of the irrationality and cruelty of the machismotic
culture of Viron and Typhon's Urthly city.

And what of Chenille? What of Marble negoticiating for Silk's release with
the Ayuntamiento, her crippling guilt, and her heartbreaking societal
plight? I contend that even Hyacinth is a more complex character than she is
generally credited as being.

I've yet to see a "good man" in Wolfe's major novels. They are all
ambiguous, frighteningly wounded men.

~ Crush

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 18:58:32 +0000

Hmm. Here I always thought that the Trinity would be something a Buddhist or 
Hindu would have a much easier time understanding than your average western 
Christian. Not to say that the understanding reached would be better, but it 
would seem at least to come more naturally.

Not sure what you mean on the Dorpspraak - it goes on for a little while, 
but I've not seen him use something like that for hundreds of pages. Side 
note: your mileage may vary, but I found the dialog between Oreb and the 
catachrest to be far more annoying and difficult to follow.

Wolfe's women have been commented on fairly extensively here, so I won't 
drag the whole thing out again. But I think you may already have an answer 
in what you said toward the end there. I can't think of any character, male 
or female, in any Wolfe book I have read that is more "stomach-churningly 
idolized" than Silk (which is not to say that he doesn't have his flaws). 
And his other male protagonists? Flawed, sometimes deeply so - in some cases 
outright brutal. Does this indicate that Wolfe has issues with men?

I don't dislike most of Wolfe's female characters - in fact, many of them I 
like better than Wolfe's male protagonists - though it's true that some of 
them are just not very strong. I don't find that too bothersome, but what 
*does* bother me is the kind of male-female relationships he sets up. But 
that's another story, and one best left to archive-browsing.

-- Civet

Sikozu said:
>Incidentally, to those who comment that Buddhism is confusing and mystical, 
>I usually reply by asking them questions about the Trinity until such time 
>as I am able to throw my hands in the air and say, "You think BUDDHISM is 
>incomprehensible?!?" I figure they asked for it.
>
>Well, I must say that while I adore Wolfe, I find his Crypto-Catholicism 
>and anti-feminism irritating. I have never met the man and can only stand 
>in awe of his brilliant writing, but no one is perfect and sometimes he is 
>boring or annoying: "Dorpspraak like Yoda annoying for hundreds of pages 
>is" - or just angrymaking.
>
>bitches, and always incomprehensible, is very very aggravating. Long Sun 
>and Short Sun beg for a half-decent female character who isn't crap. 
>General Mint doesn't count, she is the virgin Joan of Arc, beyond humanity 
>in person.
>
>Anyway, I'm sure many will disagree, but as a woman that's what I got out 
>of them. Not to say I don't adore them but Wolfe is clearly tied in knots 
>about women somewhere and it comes out plain and clear to me.
>
>Of course, my idea of a fun time is reading "Hothead Paisan", so take it 
>with a grain of salt. ;-)
>
>Sikozu

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