{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4216", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4216, "subject": "Black Sun", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-09-10T06:29:09+00:00", "last": "2003-09-10T14:42:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bates", "address": "thomasgbates at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-09-10T07:13:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Black Sun", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In all this talk of the different suns, what about the Black Sun?\nIn _The Sword of the Lictor_, when Severian is in Thrax with the sick\nchildren, he says that the Conciliator is the Black Sun.\n\n\"That night in the jacal it [the Claw] was not brilliant, but it\nglowed with so deep a blue that the light itself seemed almost a\nclearer darkness. Of all the names of the Conciliator, the one that\nis, I believe, least used, and which has always seemed the most\npuzzling to me, is that of the Black Sun. Since that night, I have\nfelt myself almost to comprehend it.\" (Volume III, Chapter VIII,\nTBotNS)\n\n\"Black Sun\" makes me think of a black hole, but I don't see what that\nhas to do with the Conciliator. Maybe someone else does?\n\nThe only thing I can think of is the darkness at the crucifixion of\nChrist, which is thought to have resulted from an eclipse:\n\nLuke 23:44-45\nAnd it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all\nthe earth until the ninth hour. \nAnd the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the\nmidst.\n\nMat 27:45\nNow from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the\nninth hour." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-09-10T06:29:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Black Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if it is relevant here, but the \"Black Sun\" is an\nAsatru/Odinistic mythical image connected to the source of wisdom.\nEssentially it is the \"other side\" of the sun - the sun not as a physical\nthing, but purely as a symbol of mystical knowledge.\n\nThere are some Odinistic references in the Sun books (for example Silk is\nplainly a figure of Odin, with a raven and one eye)\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Thomas Bates\" \nTo: \nSent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 8:13 AM\nSubject: (urth) Black Sun\nIn all this talk of the different suns, what about the Black Sun?\nIn _The Sword of the Lictor_, when Severian is in Thrax with the sick\nchildren, he says that the Conciliator is the Black Sun.\n\n\"That night in the jacal it [the Claw] was not brilliant, but it\nglowed with so deep a blue that the light itself seemed almost a\nclearer darkness. Of all the names of the Conciliator, the one that\nis, I believe, least used, and which has always seemed the most\npuzzling to me, is that of the Black Sun. Since that night, I have\nfelt myself almost to comprehend it.\" (Volume III, Chapter VIII,\nTBotNS)\n\n\"Black Sun\" makes me think of a black hole, but I don't see what that\nhas to do with the Conciliator. Maybe someone else does?\n\nThe only thing I can think of is the darkness at the crucifixion of\nChrist, which is thought to have resulted from an eclipse:\n\nLuke 23:44-45" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-09-10T14:42:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Black Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:13 AM 9/10/2003, Thomas Bates wrote:\nIn all this talk of the different suns, what about the Black Sun?\nIn _The Sword of the Lictor_, when Severian is in Thrax with the sick\nchildren, he says that the Conciliator is the Black Sun.\n\n\"That night in the jacal it [the Claw] was not brilliant, but it\nglowed with so deep a blue that the light itself seemed almost a\nclearer darkness. Of all the names of the Conciliator, the one that\nis, I believe, least used, and which has always seemed the most\npuzzling to me, is that of the Black Sun. Since that night, I have\nfelt myself almost to comprehend it.\" (Volume III, Chapter VIII,\nTBotNS)\n\n\"Black Sun\" makes me think of a black hole, but I don't see what that\nhas to do with the Conciliator. Maybe someone else does?\n\nThe only thing I can think of is the darkness at the crucifixion of\nChrist, which is thought to have resulted from an eclipse:\n\nLuke 23:44-45\nAnd it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all\nthe earth until the ninth hour.\nAnd the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the\nmidst.\n\nMat 27:45\nNow from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the\nninth hour." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Is Odin symbolism is already at work in the Severian books? There \nis Ragnarok, so I guess Wolfe was already employing a bit of Norse imagery. \nThe chapter does not seem to be trading in Norse myth, however, but in the \ngospel, where Jesus enters the room of the dead girl and raises her.\n Some quick notes/thoughts:\n 1. The darkness on Calvary cannot be intended as an eclipse since \nit lasts three hours. Rather, it refers back to the three days of darkness \nof the 9th Egyptian Plague that preceded the 10th, which entailed the death \nof the Passover Lamb as a way of escaping it. The gospels intend us to \nunderstand this as miraculous event.\n 2. This chapter (3:8) emphasizes Sev's black robe, which appears \nbright to the girl. Also the darkened shining of the claw. Sev as \nConciliator is both black and white sun.\n 3. Speculating, I would think of hell as outer darkness, the place \nof judgment, judgment that comes from God just as much as the light of \ngrace comes from Him. Sev. is clearly mostly the judgment side, as a \nTorturer. But he manifests the grace-light side also. If the dark Claw \nsomehow signifies judgment, one would see this as a judgment unto \nresurrection in this chapter, since that, in essence, is what happens. This \ndoes fit with the overall narrative: Sev as Black Sun bringing judgment to \nUrth, and resurrection as New Sun afterwards.\n But I don't know if that's entirely right, or even on the map.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }