{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4229", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4229, "subject": "Piaton; apocalypse", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "2004-09-26T19:08:04+00:00", "last": "2004-09-28T22:10:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<03a801c4a436$a6b5d460$3700a8c0@crunchynut>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2004-09-26T19:08:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piaton; apocalypse", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeffrey's excellent \"Valeria = Urth\" post somehow made clear to me the symbolic aspect of Sev's destruction of Typhon by killing Piaton. Piaton surely represents the old Urth, innocent in itself but hopelessly infected with the old evils, which it will continue to breed and suffer from, until it is put out of its misery. Kind of a \"doh\" moment for not having seen it that way previously.\n\nBut there is a fundamental question about Sev's apocalypse which remains very unclear to me. How do Abaia and the others fit into this? Very simply, a global inundation isn't something which is going to cause them much grief; and indeed we see the undines leaping from the waves (or something like that) to greet the New Sun. Abaia etc definitely have a place in the post-apocalyptic world - just as The Mother has a place on Blue (\"respect but do not worship\", as Silk's final injunction to the community in New Viron puts it). \n\nIt my be that this was not Wolfe's intention in the first four books, but at least by the time he wrote UOTNS, these beings occupy a completely different space in the taxonomy of evil than creatures such as Typhon and the governess of the proto-Torturers' Tower. They survive, Typhon and the governess don't. \n\nBut why? Is a race of enslaved Ascians a better cosmic outcome than a race enslaved by Typhon? And to the extent that Abaia wants to enslave humans, won't this be much easier to accomplish with humanity reduced to a scattering of souls & returned to its primitive beginnings? \n\nAnd you see something of the same puzzle in the different tretment of Typhon and Baldanders. To me it is clear enough that they are the \"alpha\" and \"omega\" of the same type - Sev first kills the original tyrant, and then comes down the mountain & deals with the new wannabe tyrant. But Baldanders doesn't perish, then or in the Flood (presumably)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2004-09-27T01:13:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piaton; apocalypse", "in_reply_to": "<03a801c4a436$a6b5d460$3700a8c0@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In response to Andrew's excellent post, some thoughts:\n\nI don't have a precise answer about Abaia's place in the post-apocalyptic \nworld, but I do have something like an argument, I suppose, based on what I \nconsider to be the role of the Megatherians in Severian's story. This is \nobviously going to be arguable, and if you think there's nothing to it by \nall means say so, but it does make a great deal of sense to me, at least.\n\nI would start by saying that there is a large difference between what Typhon \nis and what Abaia is, but that the two are solidly related to each other, \nakin to type-and-token, but not quite. The Megatherians, I would say, are \nmore like ideas or ideologies. Thus, Typhon can stand in for the individual, \nthe Stalin or Hitler, while Abaia would be something more like \n\"totalitarianism\" in the abstract. Some aspects of the Megatherians:\n\n1) They are planted, \"below the surface\", and at least rhetorically speaking \nhave or are the seeds of the destruction of human civilization.\n\n2) They seem to grow over time, but aside from when they have their day in \nthe sun (ie Baldanders, during the time we get to see him), they are hidden \nand seem to exert their influence powerfully and *indirectly*.\n\n3) The fact that the Ascians are influenced/enslaved by one of these \nMegatherians gives us a picture of what kind of idea these beings are. \nBaldanders and the kind of things you find in his castle provide another \nexample.\n\nThere is also a distinct difference in how Baldanders and Typhon are treated \nby Wolfe, morally speaking - despite the fact that Severian ultimately \nfights them both. We have no trouble morally judging Typhon, he is the \nindividual. Baldanders, on the other hand, presents himself as morally \nneutral, as if his actions were the work of an impersonal force or as if he \nwere something to which morals do not properly pertain. Unfortunately I \ndon't have a copy on hand, but it seems to me that the original story that \nSeverian reads describing the origins of the Megatherians was also somewhat \nmorally ambivalent... despite being objects of dread, I did not get the \nimpression that they were \"evil\" in that story.\n\nUltimately I found that this helped me to reconcile the seeming \ninscrutability of their motives. If it seems difficult to figure out what \nthey want, perhaps it is because they don't \"want\" anything at all - they \nsimply act/influence according to their nature. The exception is Baldanders \nwhen he's still above the surface, and in that case he seems to act \nprimarily to perpetuate himself.\n\nSo, did Abaia want the New Sun to come, or did he want to stop it? Did he \nhelp or hinder Severian? My guess is that the closest answer to the first is \nthat he is indifferent to the prospect. That said, he may well have both \nhelped *and* hindered Sev.\n\nMy wild guess about the original question is that, since Urth seems to have \na cyclical history, Abaia may be gone when the \"reset button\" is pushed, but \nhuman nature being what it is, he'll be back someday. I am speculating that \nthe undines are something more elementary, like Numena compared to Abaia as \na more fully articulated mythological god/creature, and that they wouldn't \nbe affected by the cataclysm - if anything, they would be more loose to play \nin simpler times (and minds)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeffrey's excellent \"Valeria = Urth\" post somehow made clear to me the \nsymbolic aspect of Sev's destruction of Typhon by killing Piaton. Piaton \nsurely represents the old Urth, innocent in itself but hopelessly infected \nwith the old evils, which it will continue to breed and suffer from, until \nit is put out of its misery. Kind of a \"doh\" moment for not having seen it \nthat way previously.\n\nBut there is a fundamental question about Sev's apocalypse which remains \nvery unclear to me. How do Abaia and the others fit into this? Very simply, \na global inundation isn't something which is going to cause them much \ngrief; and indeed we see the undines leaping from the waves (or something \nlike that) to greet the New Sun. Abaia etc definitely have a place in the \npost-apocalyptic world - just as The Mother has a place on Blue (\"respect \nbut do not worship\", as Silk's final injunction to the community in New \nViron puts it).\n\nIt my be that this was not Wolfe's intention in the first four books, but \nat least by the time he wrote UOTNS, these beings occupy a completely \ndifferent space in the taxonomy of evil than creatures such as Typhon and \nthe governess of the proto-Torturers' Tower. They survive, Typhon and the \ngoverness don't.\n\nBut why? Is a race of enslaved Ascians a better cosmic outcome than a race \nenslaved by Typhon? And to the extent that Abaia wants to enslave humans, \nwon't this be much easier to accomplish with humanity reduced to a \nscattering of souls & returned to its primitive beginnings?\n\nAnd you see something of the same puzzle in the different tretment of \nTyphon and Baldanders. To me it is clear enough that they are the \"alpha\" \nand \"omega\" of the same type - Sev first kills the original tyrant, and \nthen comes down the mountain & deals with the new wannabe tyrant. But \nBaldanders doesn't perish, then or in the Flood (presumably).\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<41582B0F.4030208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2004-09-27T08:00:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piaton; apocalypse", "in_reply_to": "<03a801c4a436$a6b5d460$3700a8c0@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Bollen wrote:\nBut there is a fundamental question about Sev's apocalypse which remains \nvery unclear to me. How do Abaia and the others fit into this? Very \nsimply, a global inundation isn't something which is going to cause them \nmuch grief; and indeed we see the undines leaping from the waves (or \nsomething like that) to greet the New Sun. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The flood may not be world-wide; indeed if the Increate is the God of \nthe Old Testament, that would be in keeping with His promise not to \ndestroy the world by water a second time. The undines may be momentarily \nflourishing because they are feasting on the creatures drowned by the \nflood of Gyoll's basin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But why? Is a race of enslaved Ascians a better cosmic outcome than a \nrace enslaved by Typhon? And to the extent that Abaia wants to enslave \nhumans, won't this be much easier to accomplish with humanity reduced to \na scattering of souls & returned to its primitive beginnings?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not really; each pocket of the scattered and primitive survivors may be \neasier to control, but they have little or no reach to snare others. \nInstead of working from the top downward of a corrupted society, Abaia \nand agents would need to duplicate their efforts many times for little \ngain each time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And you see something of the same puzzle in the different tretment of \nTyphon and Baldanders. To me it is clear enough that they are the \n\"alpha\" and \"omega\" of the same type - Sev first kills the original \ntyrant, and then comes down the mountain & deals with the new wannabe \ntyrant. But Baldanders doesn't perish, then or in the Flood (presumably)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps it is the grace of the Increate, or reflective of evil's \ntenacity. To have the flood simply wash away badness leaving only the \ngood would imply destructive force is a simple and complete solution to \nmoral issues. Or perhaps Baldanders and Abaia have some good in them \nworth saving. It could be that Abaia's forces are secretly on the side \nof good, grim doers of the regrettably necessary, like the angel of \ndeath at Passover, or Severian himself." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nLead Playtester, GURPS Ultra-Tech for 4/e\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370409271237673502d1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2004-09-27T12:38:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piaton; apocalypse", "in_reply_to": "<41582B0F.4030208@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmm.\n\nUshas isn't just a flooded Urth; new continents (or old, long-sunken\nones) rise. The impression I have is that in their arising, Abaia is\nforced above the surface of the water, where he can't live." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nPropensity for the base\nCapacity for such grace" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c4a50c$d0f00d00$2c3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2004-09-27T20:39:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piaton; apocalypse", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370409271237673502d1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nAndrew Bollen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But there is a fundamental question about Sev's apocalypse which remains\nvery unclear to me. How do Abaia and the others fit into this? Very\nsimply, a global inundation isn't something which is going to cause them\nmuch grief; and indeed we see the undines leaping from the waves (or\nsomething like that) to greet the New Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The flood may not be world-wide; indeed if the Increate is the God of\nthe Old Testament, that would be in keeping with His promise not to\ndestroy the world by water a second time. The undines may be momentarily\nflourishing because they are feasting on the creatures drowned by the\nflood of Gyoll's basin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, no. The flood is world-wide. That's the whole point of it. As Tzadkiel\nsaid to Severian:\n\n\"You are the New Sun. You will be returned to your Urth, and the White\nFountain will go with you. The death agonies of the world you know will be\noffered to the Increate. And they will be indescribable -- continents will\nfounder, as has been said. Much that is beautiful will perish, and with it\nmost of your race; but your home will be reborn.\" (Urth, p-153)\n\nAnd, on the same page:\n\n\"My son will see that you are returned to Briah and Urth, which will be\ndestroyed at your order.\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<415A43D5.3060904@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2004-09-28T22:10:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piaton; apocalypse", "in_reply_to": "<001001c4a50c$d0f00d00$2c3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Bollen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But there is a fundamental question about Sev's apocalypse which remains\nvery unclear to me. How do Abaia and the others fit into this? Very\nsimply, a global inundation isn't something which is going to cause them\nmuch grief; and indeed we see the undines leaping from the waves (or\nsomething like that) to greet the New Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The flood may not be world-wide; indeed if the Increate is the God of\nthe Old Testament, that would be in keeping with His promise not to\ndestroy the world by water a second time. The undines may be momentarily\nflourishing because they are feasting on the creatures drowned by the\nflood of Gyoll's basin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, no. The flood is world-wide. That's the whole point of it. As Tzadkiel\nsaid to Severian:\n\n\"You are the New Sun. You will be returned to your Urth, and the White\nFountain will go with you. The death agonies of the world you know will be\noffered to the Increate. And they will be indescribable -- continents will\nfounder, as has been said. Much that is beautiful will perish, and with it\nmost of your race; but your home will be reborn.\" (Urth, p-153)\n\nAnd, on the same page:\n\n\"My son will see that you are returned to Briah and Urth, which will be\ndestroyed at your order.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So the flood is so widespread as to make no differenece. Hmm...the \nagonies being offered to the Increate suggests it is a non-divine party \ndoing the destroying, but who?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nLead Playtester, GURPS Ultra-Tech for 4/e\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }