{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4233", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4233, "subject": "Finally... UOTNS has arrived", "messages": 18, "voices": 11, "first": "2004-09-29T06:37:31+00:00", "last": "2004-10-05T17:22:09+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20040929133726.GA79616@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>", "from": { "name": "Jonathon McKitrick", "address": "jcm at freebsd-uk.eu.org" }, "date": "2004-09-29T06:37:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Finally... UOTNS has arrived", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, after deciding to order the book online since none of the stores near\nhere had it, it took TWO WEEKS for everything to go through.\n\nI'm glad it's finally here, and fortunately my waning enthusiasm was quickly\nstirred after beginning the book. A few reviews I read said this book was\nunnecessary after the 4 before it, but I don't see how that could be true.\nThere are just too many questions left unanswered.\n\nIs there anything you can warn me to look out for? Any details I should\nmake sure I catch?\n\njm" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "My other computer is your Windows box." } ] }, { "message_id": "<089501c4a62b$cc879a60$3700a8c0@crunchynut>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2004-09-29T06:54:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Finally... UOTNS has arrived", "in_reply_to": "<20040929133726.GA79616@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonathon wrote:\nIs there anything you can warn me to look out for? Any details I should\nmake sure I catch?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While enjoying the way loose ends get tied up, I think it's interesting to \nthink about whether or not the way in which this happens tells a different \nstory than the back-story Wolfe had in mind for New Sun when he wrote it. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20040929181206.68642.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Anthony Ferrara", "address": "ajferrara72 at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2004-09-29T11:12:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Best order to read Sun books?", "in_reply_to": "<089501c4a62b$cc879a60$3700a8c0@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am about to start the long journey into reading the entire Sun series of books. I was wondering if it would be better to start in this order:\n\nLong Sun ---> Short Sun ---> New Sun \n\nI write this since this seems to be the chronologically correct order. Or is it better to read them by date of publication? Thank you for any advice.\n\nAnthony\n\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2004-09-29T11:34:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Best order to read Sun books?", "in_reply_to": "<20040929181206.68642.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For various reasons it's hard to place the New Sun series chronologically. \nBut in any event I think it still works slightly better to read the New Sun \nbooks first.\n\nNot that it makes a huge amount of difference. The connections between the \nNew Sun books and the Long/Short Sun books are not especially impressive on \nfirst reading. And, of course, the second time through the order won't \nmatter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am about to start the long journey into reading the entire Sun series of \nbooks. I was wondering if it would be better to start in this order:\n\nLong Sun ---> Short Sun ---> New Sun\n\nI write this since this seems to be the chronologically correct order. Or \nis it better to read them by date of publication? Thank you for any advice.\n\nAnthony\n\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\nDo you Yahoo!?\nYahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002301c4a655$4898c920$4108a9c0@pointserve.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2004-09-29T11:51:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Best order to read Sun books?", "in_reply_to": "<20040929181206.68642.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "New Sun I\nCastle of the Otter (aka \"Castle of Days\")\n\"Best of Crank\" containing \"Empires of Foilage and Flower\"\nNS II-IV\n\"Endangered Species\" containing \"The Map\" and \"The Cat\"\n\"Urth of the New Sun\"\nLS I-IV\nSS I\n\"The Crow: Shattered Lives & Broken Dreams\" containing \"The Night Chough\" \n(from the Book of the Long Sun).\nSS II-III\n\n----- Original Message ----- \nFrom: Anthony Ferrara\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 1:12 PM\nSubject: (urth) Best order to read Sun books?\n\n\nI am about to start the long journey into reading the entire Sun series of \nbooks. I was wondering if it would be better to start in this order:\nLong Sun ---> Short Sun ---> New Sun\nI write this since this seems to be the chronologically correct order. Or is \nit better to read them by date of publication? Thank you for any advice.\nAnthony\n\n\n\nDo you Yahoo!?\nYahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.0.1.1.2.20040929144654.03a70450@mail.warwick.net>", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2004-09-29T12:08:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Best order to read Sun books?", "in_reply_to": "<20040929181206.68642.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I strongly believe that the best way to read any series of books is by \npublication date. That way, you can best see the workings of the author's \nmind and the ways the various characters, concepts, etc. evolve over time.\n\nTo maximize your confusion, errr, enjoyment, I suggest that you read _The \nFifth Head of Cerberus_ first, before the Sun series. I don't subscribe the \nnotion that 5HoC is set in the \"same universe\" as the Sun books, but there \nare very interesting thematic parallels between the two works (5HoC and the \nBook of the Various Suns).\n\nHave fun!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\nAt 02:12 PM 9/29/2004, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am about to start the long journey into reading the entire Sun series of \nbooks. I was wondering if it would be better to start in this order:\n\nLong Sun ---> Short Sun ---> New Sun\n\nI write this since this seems to be the chronologically correct order. Or \nis it better to read them by date of publication? Thank you for any advice.\n\nAnthony" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370409291244a79644@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2004-09-29T12:45:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Best order to read Sun books?", "in_reply_to": "<6.0.1.1.2.20040929144654.03a70450@mail.warwick.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I strongly believe that the best way to read any series of books is by\npublication date. That way, you can best see the workings of the author's\nmind and the ways the various characters, concepts, etc. evolve over time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"We are the chorus and we agree.\nWe agree, we agree, we agree.\"\n\nGross example: The Narnia books. CS Lewis decided after the fact to\nrecommend a reading order that begins with _The Magician's Nephew_,\nwhich is his prerogative but _dumb_ because _TMN_ kind of assumes that\nyou are already familiar with some of the other books. At least in\nsmall ways.\n\nAnyway, I highly recommend reading the \"Books\" in publication order.\nI'm not so convinced that there's any special purpose to reading the\nvarious related short stories in any particular place - though I _do_\nthink that \"The Night Chough\" fits nicely in between the Long and the\nShort of it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nPropensity for the base\nCapacity for such grace" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000701c4a666$d1c37860$4108a9c0@pointserve.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2004-09-29T13:56:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Best order to read Sun books?", "in_reply_to": "<6.0.1.1.2.20040929144654.03a70450@mail.warwick.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To maximize your confusion, errr, enjoyment, I suggest that you read _The \nFifth Head of Cerberus_ first, before the Sun series. I don't subscribe the \nnotion that 5HoC is set in the \"same universe\" as the Sun books, but there \nare very interesting thematic parallels between the two works (5HoC and the \nBook of the Various Suns)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is absolutely true - especially for the \"Book of the Short Sun\". So \nperhaps reading \"Fifth Head\" just before plowing into the last series could \nbe useful. On the other hand, reading \"Fifth Head\" last of all would not be \nworse.\n\nHowever, if you go the route William Ansley suggests, then I recommend \nreading the Latro novels just before starting \"The Book of the Long Sun\" \nsince Wolfe seems there to have been appeasing creative demons that were \nleft unsatisfied when Tor gently recommended another Urth book instead of \nanother Latro book.\n\nIncidentally, while I'm not sold on always reading a series by publication \nchronology, I think if one does not read the New Sun first, he will miss \nintentional references in the Silk segment that the author intended. Since \n\"Short Sun\" is (a little too) difficult as it is (there! I said it!), I \ndon't see any point in making it tougher.\n\n~ Crush " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3A0AB49B.2B7D91E9.0299E010@aol.com>", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2004-09-29T14:56:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Best order to read Sun books?", "in_reply_to": "<000701c4a666$d1c37860$4108a9c0@pointserve.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know people who've found it very difficult to get into \nthe New Sun books but really enjoyed the Long Sun books,\nand I think there's little enough cross-reference between\nthese two series that the reading order doesn't matter.\nSo if you have difficulty with the New Sun, try starting \nwith the Long Sun. Also, I think it's best to save the Short\nSun for last, as it's both the most difficult in certain\nways, and it references both the New and Long Suns." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Stone Ox (Peter)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001901c4a685$385740c0$3700a8c0@crunchynut>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2004-09-29T17:34:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cat", "in_reply_to": "<002301c4a655$4898c920$4108a9c0@pointserve.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was some discussion of this story a while back, which I didn't follow \nas I've only just read it - so maybe this has been done to death, but FWIW, \nmy interpretation ...\n\nThe doll-like figure is surely the Chateleine's soul, or some aspect of it. \nHer cat, existing in some border-land between the \"other realm\" and this, \nhas grabbed it on its passage through and delivered it to its mistress (ie \nthe Chateleine's body) in the same way that it had deposited the body of a \nsparrow at her feet many years before. We know it's her soul and not some \nrandom border-land denizen because Inire orders it to be buried with her.\n\nSouls-as-dolls seems to be another of Wolfe's little tropes - carried over \ninto the Long Sun series in the form of the soul-dolls which appear to \nSilkhorn & others in dreams." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20040930152651.GA96344@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>", "from": { "name": "Jonathon McKitrick", "address": "jcm at freebsd-uk.eu.org" }, "date": "2004-09-30T08:26:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Finally... UOTNS has arrived", "in_reply_to": "<089501c4a62b$cc879a60$3700a8c0@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Wed, Sep 29, 2004 at 11:54:05PM +1000, Andrew Bollen wrote:\n: Jonathon wrote:\n: \n: >Is there anything you can warn me to look out for? Any details I should\n: >make sure I catch?\n: \n: While enjoying the way loose ends get tied up, I think it's interesting to \n: think about whether or not the way in which this happens tells a different \n: story than the back-story Wolfe had in mind for New Sun when he wrote it. \n\nReally? Hmm. That could be interesting. I really can't see how BOTNS\ncould stand on its own. There is just so much left unexplained. But what\nmakes you think he really changed the back-story?\n\njm" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "My other computer is your Windows box." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20040930.123210.74751918.christopher_culver@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Christopher Culver", "address": "christopher_culver at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2004-09-30T10:32:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Finally... UOTNS has arrived", "in_reply_to": "<20040930152651.GA96344@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonathon McKitrick wrote:\nReally? Hmm. That could be interesting. I really can't see how BOTNS\ncould stand on its own. There is just so much left unexplained." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe originally intended to let the story stand on its own in those\nfour books. The only reason he wrote UotNS is because of pressure by\nhis editor.\n\nThis is all discussed in the archives and in interviews with Wolfe\navailable on the web. I'm glad that the list is getting new people,\nbut be aware this issue, and many others, have all be discussed\nbefore, and you'd get more profit out of the lengthy discussion in the\narchives than curt answers now.\n\nChristopher Culver\n\n----\nChristopher Culver - christopher_culver at yahoo.com\nhttp://komputilo.org/~crculver/index.php\n\n????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????\n- Yasunari Kawabata, ????????" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002a01c4a71c$221ff8a0$4108a9c0@pointserve.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2004-09-30T11:34:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Finally... UOTNS has arrived", "in_reply_to": "<20040930.123210.74751918.christopher_culver@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jonathon McKitrick wrote:\nReally? Hmm. That could be interesting. I really can't see how BOTNS\ncould stand on its own. There is just so much left unexplained." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christopher Culver:\nWolfe originally intended to let the story stand on its own in those\nfour books. The only reason he wrote UotNS is because of pressure by\nhis editor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which doesn't mean that stopping the story with \"Citadel of the Autarch\" \nwould have been the best plan. I didn't get idea from Wolfe that his editors \nwanted an extra novel only to sell more books. They seem to think more \nelaboration was needed. I agree.\n\nI realize some people think all the extra \"splainin'\" in UotNS is an \nimposition on the mystery and elegance of the original novel. I'm not in \nthat camp.\n\n~ Crush " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20040930193930.GA98842@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>", "from": { "name": "Jonathon McKitrick", "address": "jcm at freebsd-uk.eu.org" }, "date": "2004-09-30T12:39:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Finally... UOTNS has arrived", "in_reply_to": "<20040930.123210.74751918.christopher_culver@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 12:32:10PM -0500, Christopher Culver wrote:\n: This is all discussed in the archives and in interviews with Wolfe\n: available on the web. I'm glad that the list is getting new people,\n: but be aware this issue, and many others, have all be discussed\n: before, and you'd get more profit out of the lengthy discussion in the\n: archives than curt answers now.\n\nI've been trying to wade through them, but it is so difficult to tell what\nto search for. And just browsing by subject line is not much help either.\n\n\njm" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "My other computer is your Windows box." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2004-10-02T16:25:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Finally... UOTNS has arrived", "in_reply_to": "<002a01c4a71c$221ff8a0$4108a9c0@pointserve.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "on 9/30/04 1:34 PM, James Wynn at thewynns at earthlink.net wrote:\nJonathon McKitrick wrote:\nReally? Hmm. That could be interesting. I really can't see how BOTNS\ncould stand on its own. There is just so much left unexplained." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "UotNS does more to raise new enigmas than to resolve old ones, imho." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Christopher Culver:\nWolfe originally intended to let the story stand on its own in those\nfour books. The only reason he wrote UotNS is because of pressure by\nhis editor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which doesn't mean that stopping the story with \"Citadel of the Autarch\"\nwould have been the best plan. I didn't get idea from Wolfe that his editors\nwanted an extra novel only to sell more books. They seem to think more\nelaboration was needed. I agree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Iirc, Wolfe said somewhere that his editor had originally wanted him to add\na paragraph or so to the end of Citadel spelling out that Severian went to\nYesod and brought back the New Sun, and eventually agreed to let Wolfe leave\nthe ending as it was if he wrote an extra volume to explain what happened\nafter Citadel. (I thought I remembered this from Castle of Days, but I just\nwent and looked, and it doesn't seem to be there.)\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2004-10-04T20:34:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Best order to read Sun books?", "in_reply_to": "<002301c4a655$4898c920$4108a9c0@pointserve.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 1:51 PM -0500 9/29/04, James Wynn wrote:\n\nNew Sun I\nCastle of the Otter (aka \"Castle of Days\")\n\"Best of Crank\" containing \"Empires of Foilage and Flower\"\nNS II-IV" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to endorse reading _Castle of Days_ (CAD), although I would \nread the entire Book of the New Sun (BOTNS) (_Shadow of the \nTorturer_, _Claw of the Conciliator_, Sword of the Lictor_ and \n_Citadel of the Autarch_) first, then CAD. In fact, you don't need to \nread all of CAD, just the part that is _Castle of the Otter_ (CATO). \nCAD is a volume that combines CATO and _Gene Wolfe's Book of Days_, \nboth of which were relatively short books that had gone out of print.\n\nYou might also consider reading the short story, \"A Solar Labyrinth\" \nin _Storeys from the Old Hotel_ right after BOTNS and consider what \nrelation, if any, it has to the longer work." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2004-10-04T21:12:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell: It's not really Lupine,\n\tbut ...", "in_reply_to": "<002301c4a655$4898c920$4108a9c0@pointserve.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even though it won't satisfy anyone who primarily reads Wolfe for the \ncomplexity and obscurity of his books, I still recommend _Jonathan \nStrange and Mr. Norrell_ by Susanna Clarke to the members of this \nlist. I certainly think this book will appeal to those among you who \nenjoy John Crowley, although again, it is quite a different reading \nexperience.\n\nJS & Mr. N is a charmingly and quite well-written book about an \nalternative England, set in the early 19th century and written in the \nvoice of an author of the period. Although the book is long (782 \npages in hardcover) and occasionally seemed to be proceeding at too \ndeliberate a pace, having finished it I cannot say that I begrudge \nMs. Clarke a single page. I must add that Susanna Clarke is \nparticularly sound on fairies." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2004-10-05T17:22:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell: It's not really Lupine,\n\tbut ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 09:12 PM, William Ansley wrote:\nEven though it won't satisfy anyone who primarily reads Wolfe for the \ncomplexity and obscurity of his books, I still recommend _Jonathan \nStrange and Mr. Norrell_ by Susanna Clarke to the members of this \nlist. I certainly think this book will appeal to those among you who \nenjoy John Crowley, although again, it is quite a different reading \nexperience.\n\nJS & Mr. N is a charmingly and quite well-written book about an \nalternative England, set in the early 19th century and written in the \nvoice of an author of the period. Although the book is long (782 pages \nin hardcover) and occasionally seemed to be proceeding at too \ndeliberate a pace, having finished it I cannot say that I begrudge Ms. \nClarke a single page. I must add that Susanna Clarke is particularly \nsound on fairies.\n-- " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don replies,\n\nIt's a very enjoyable book. The many footnotes, far from being \ndistracting, really add to the richness of the story. Still, I felt it \nwas anticlimactic for such a large theme. A second volume would \nrectify this quite nicely though. Perhaps she should just write The \nHistory and Practice of English Magic with footnotes from other works \non Pale, Godbless, and the rest. I'd certainly buy it. FWIW" } ] } ] }