{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4266", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4266, "subject": "BotNS in German", "messages": 31, "voices": 11, "first": "2004-12-03T14:00:20+00:00", "last": "2004-12-06T11:56:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041203214147.03cf27b0@pop.gmx.net>", "from": { "name": "Hmpf MacSlow", "address": "hmpf1998 at gmx.net" }, "date": "2004-12-03T14:00:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But first: print-on-demand Lexicon Urthus? Very good news. :-)\n\nYeah, I know I said I'd go back to lurking, but circumstances drive me to \nposting again... circumstances being these: I have this habit of giving my \nmom who, fortunately, is really open-minded my favourite book of the year \nfor Christmas. By this self-imposed 'rule' I should have given her BotNS \nlast year already, but I was somewhat daunted by the task of finding copies \nof the German version. (I usually read books that were written in English \nin English, but my mom reads mostly German, and I certainly wouldn't ask \nher to read *Wolfe* in English.) But this year, I've found copies of all \nthe five volumes, and one of them, UotNS, arrived today. I've only had a \nquick glance at it so far, but even so it is painfully obvious that the \ntranslation is, well, less than satisfactory. Severian's '... what I've \ndone *to* Urth.\" has been turned into a '... what I've done *for* Urth*, \nApheta is addressed as 'woman' instead of 'lady', etc. Unfortunately all \nthe volumes have been translated by the same translator, so there's little \nhope of the other four volumes being any better.\n\nAdd to that the fact that the books have been out of print for years, and \nyou can see why I as a German Wolfe fan feel both vaguely ashamed and \nenormously frustrated. I want to recommend this book to people I know, but \nit's unavailable! (I'm translating the book myself now, as 'therapy' for \nthat frustration, but of course there is little chance of me finishing that \nwork, much less finishing it within any kind of useful timeframe. It \nclearly is a mammoth task.)\n\nIn my opinion it is a crying shame that The Book of the New Sun is not \ncurrently available in a German edition. I don't know if there is any \nchance of us lowly readers influencing the decisions of big publishing \nhouses, but maybe it's worth a try. Are there any other German Wolfe \nreaders on this list? Maybe a few well-argued letters to Heyne, the \n'current' publisher, and perhaps to Suhrkamp and Klett-Cotta, which IMO \nwould me much better suited to Wolfe than Heyne is, couldn't hurt... and if \nwe're asking for a reprint, we can just as well ask for a new translation, \ntoo...\n\nThe worst that can happen is that they tell us 'no', in which case we'll be \nno worse off than we are now.\n\nHmpf" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20041203235555.73231.qmail@web14726.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Maru", "address": "marudubshinki at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2004-12-03T15:55:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041203214147.03cf27b0@pop.gmx.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good grief! How on earth do you plan to replicate his\nvocabulary?\nDoes German even have an analogue to the OED?\nWill you add critical information?\n~Maru\nEven if you stop tomorrow, I admire the scope of your dreams and\ndevotion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Hmpf MacSlow wrote:\nBut first: print-on-demand Lexicon Urthus? Very good news. :-)\n\nYeah, I know I said I'd go back to lurking, but circumstances\ndrive me to \nposting again... circumstances being these: I have this habit\nof giving my \nmom who, fortunately, is really open-minded my favourite book\nof the year \nfor Christmas. By this self-imposed 'rule' I should have given\nher BotNS \nlast year already, but I was somewhat daunted by the task of\nfinding copies \nof the German version. (I usually read books that were written\nin English \nin English, but my mom reads mostly German, and I certainly\nwouldn't ask \nher to read *Wolfe* in English.) But this year, I've found\ncopies of all \nthe five volumes, and one of them, UotNS, arrived today. I've\nonly had a \nquick glance at it so far, but even so it is painfully obvious\nthat the \ntranslation is, well, less than satisfactory. Severian's '...\nwhat I've \ndone *to* Urth.\" has been turned into a '... what I've done\n*for* Urth*, \nApheta is addressed as 'woman' instead of 'lady', etc.\nUnfortunately all \nthe volumes have been translated by the same translator, so\nthere's little \nhope of the other four volumes being any better.\n\nAdd to that the fact that the books have been out of print for\nyears, and \nyou can see why I as a German Wolfe fan feel both vaguely\nashamed and \nenormously frustrated. I want to recommend this book to people\nI know, but \nit's unavailable! (I'm translating the book myself now, as\n'therapy' for \nthat frustration, but of course there is little chance of me\nfinishing that \nwork, much less finishing it within any kind of useful\ntimeframe. It \nclearly is a mammoth task.)\n\nIn my opinion it is a crying shame that The Book of the New Sun\nis not \ncurrently available in a German edition. I don't know if there\nis any \nchance of us lowly readers influencing the decisions of big\npublishing \nhouses, but maybe it's worth a try. Are there any other German\nWolfe \nreaders on this list? Maybe a few well-argued letters to Heyne,\nthe \n'current' publisher, and perhaps to Suhrkamp and Klett-Cotta,\nwhich IMO \nwould me much better suited to Wolfe than Heyne is, couldn't\nhurt... and if \nwe're asking for a reprint, we can just as well ask for a new\ntranslation, \ntoo...\n\nThe worst that can happen is that they tell us 'no', in which\ncase we'll be \nno worse off than we are now.\n\nHmpf\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041204013348.01ca0ef0@pop.gmx.net>", "from": { "name": "Hmpf MacSlow", "address": "hmpf1998 at gmx.net" }, "date": "2004-12-03T16:51:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<20041203235555.73231.qmail@web14726.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:55 AM 12/4/2004, you wrote:\nGood grief! How on earth do you plan to replicate his\nvocabulary?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uhm... I dunno. Consulting a really good dictionary would be my first \nguess. Hey, I've only just started, and I'm not sure yet how serious I am. \nThing is, I want to teach myself how to translate literature, and have in \nfact been doing the odd little translation job (not literature, though) on \nthe side for a while now, and translating Gene Wolfe certainly is one hell \nof an efficient way of learning to translate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does German even have an analogue to the OED?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm pretty sure we do, and I'm pretty sure that theological, architectural, \nmilitary etc. dictionaries would/will be a great help, too. I'm lucky, too, \nas I happen to live in the city where the Deutsche Bibliothek is - that's \nour equivalent to the Library of Congress. So, whatever book I might need, \nI could get - at least to look at. They don't give books away there. Our \nuniversity library isn't half bad, either.\n\nA more difficult problem might be that German, as far as I am aware of - \nand my German vocabulary is pretty big, even for a native speaker, or so \nI'm told - does not have as many foreign words as English. In English, you \ncan always find a more complicated way to say something simple (E.g. \n'barbican' for 'watchtower'). I'm not sure that's always possible in \nGerman. So, a bit of the special flavour of the book will definitely get \nlost. But then, something is always 'lost in translation'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Will you add critical information?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What kind of information? I *have* no critical information! Besides... if \nI'm doing this, I'm doing it purely for my edification, not for \npublication. I mean, I sure wouldn't mind if someone wanted to publish it, \nbut the problem - apart from the fact that there are probably better \ntranslators out there than me, and I'm not a recognized 'pro' - is that \nit's already been published. It's just out of print." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "~Maru\nEven if you stop tomorrow, I admire the scope of your dreams and\ndevotion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LOL... yeah, 'delusions of grandeur' is my middle name. I'm also thinking \nabout planning a convention right now (not Wolfe-related). I should try to \nremember that I'm supposed to be a student... and that I need to set some \ntime aside for uni, and for earning a living... *g*\n\nHmpf" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20041203.194951.70368128.christopher_culver@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Christopher Culver", "address": "christopher_culver at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2004-12-03T17:50:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041204013348.01ca0ef0@pop.gmx.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have you written to Wolfe and asked for permission? Translating\nsomething requires the permission of the copyright holder, even if you\ndo not intend on making any money from the work.\n\nChristopher Culver" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Hmpf MacSlow :\nUhm... I dunno. Consulting a really good dictionary would be my first \nguess. Hey, I've only just started, and I'm not sure yet how serious I am. \nThing is, I want to teach myself how to translate literature, and have in \nfact been doing the odd little translation job (not literature, though) on \nthe side for a while now, and translating Gene Wolfe certainly is one hell \nof an efficient way of learning to translate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20041204015029.47715.qmail@web14710.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Maru", "address": "marudubshinki at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2004-12-03T17:50:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041204013348.01ca0ef0@pop.gmx.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I meant was like exegesis, hermeunetics, critical\ninterpretation... stuff like a dramatis personae, perhaps an\nintroduction on just what was lost in translation, perhaps some\nbackground info on wolfe... etc.\n~Maru\nAnd yeah, annoying as it is sometimes, the promiscuity of English\ncomes in handy sometimes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- Hmpf MacSlow wrote:\nWill you add critical information?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What kind of information? I *have* no critical information!\nBesides... if \nI'm doing this, I'm doing it purely for my edification, not for\n\npublication. I mean, I sure wouldn't mind if someone wanted to\npublish it, \nbut the problem - apart from the fact that there are probably\nbetter \ntranslators out there than me, and I'm not a recognized 'pro' -\nis that \nit's already been published. It's just out of print." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "~Maru\nEven if you stop tomorrow, I admire the scope of your dreams\nand\ndevotion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "LOL... yeah, 'delusions of grandeur' is my middle name. I'm\nalso thinking \nabout planning a convention right now (not Wolfe-related). I\nshould try to \nremember that I'm supposed to be a student... and that I need\nto set some \ntime aside for uni, and for earning a living... *g*\n\nHmpf\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<006501c4d9a5$d4ea4290$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2004-12-03T18:06:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<20041203.194951.70368128.christopher_culver@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have you written to Wolfe and asked for permission? Translating\nsomething requires the permission of the copyright holder, even if you\ndo not intend on making any money from the work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if you don't publish it? Maybe Hmpf just a good copy for Mom to read?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041204100956.01cda018@pop.gmx.net>", "from": { "name": "Hmpf MacSlow", "address": "hmpf1998 at gmx.net" }, "date": "2004-12-04T01:11:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<006501c4d9a5$d4ea4290$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 03:06 AM 12/4/2004, you wrote:\nHave you written to Wolfe and asked for permission? Translating\nsomething requires the permission of the copyright holder, even if you\ndo not intend on making any money from the work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even if you don't publish it? Maybe Hmpf just a good copy for Mom to read?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "AFAIK I don't need a permission to translate it for purely my own (and \npossibly, you're right, my mom's) use. I mean, I'm doing this purely for \npractice, really.\n\nHmpf " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5.2.1.1.0.20041204084219.02d16d08@pop.ntlworld.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2004-12-04T01:23:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041204013348.01ca0ef0@pop.gmx.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 00:51 04/12/2004, Hmpf MacSlow wrote:\nIn English, you can always find a more complicated way to say something \nsimple (E.g. 'barbican' for 'watchtower')." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that barbican and watchtower each have specific and disparate \nmeanings which should bring quite different images to a reader's mind.\n\nMatthew " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5.2.1.1.0.20041204092749.00c5ad10@pop.ntlworld.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2004-12-04T01:44:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<006501c4d9a5$d4ea4290$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 02:06 04/12/2004, you wrote:\nHave you written to Wolfe and asked for permission? Translating\nsomething requires the permission of the copyright holder, even if you\ndo not intend on making any money from the work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even if you don't publish it? Maybe Hmpf just a good copy for Mom to read?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The distinction is indeed in publication not profit.\n\nA translation as a private exercise requires no permission but even placing \nsuch a document in a university library would.\n\nArticle 8 of the Berne Convention:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall \nenjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorising the translation of \ntheir works throughout the term of protection of their rights in the \noriginal works." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Their \"rights in the original works\" being elsewhere defined.\n\nComplications can arise because the various signatory states implement the \nconvention by national law and there are consequently differences in \ninterpretation. Under United Kingdom statute \nhttp://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880048_en_1.htm giving a fair \ncopy of your translation to mother might indeed be considered a form of \npublication but I have a fair confidence that any attempt to prosecute on \nsuch a basis would be judged mischievous, possibly malicious and certainly \nnot in the public interest.\n\n\n Matthew " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041204105007.036bd598@pop.gmx.net>", "from": { "name": "Hmpf MacSlow", "address": "hmpf1998 at gmx.net" }, "date": "2004-12-04T01:53:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<5.2.1.1.0.20041204084219.02d16d08@pop.ntlworld.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:19 AM 12/4/2004, you wrote:\nAt 00:51 04/12/2004, Hmpf MacSlow wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In English, you can always find a more complicated way to say something \nsimple (E.g. 'barbican' for 'watchtower')." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except that barbican and watchtower each have specific and disparate \nmeanings which should bring quite different images to a reader's mind.\n\nMatthew" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay... but my point kind of was - we don't have two different words for it \nin German. (Though of course I'll only know for sure when I've checked a \nspecialised dictionary, I guess. There may be a word I just don't know.)\n\nFor the sake of curiosity: what *is* the difference? All my dictionary \nwould offer me for 'barbican' (I never looked it up before I had to \ntranslate it, being used to not understanding the occasional word in Wolfe, \nand usually just going by context) was, well, 'watchtower'.\n\nHmpf - always eager to learn new English vocabulary" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5.2.1.1.0.20041204113817.02c897a0@pop.ntlworld.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2004-12-04T04:34:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041204105007.036bd598@pop.gmx.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:53 04/12/2004, you wrote:\nAt 10:19 AM 12/4/2004, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 00:51 04/12/2004, Hmpf MacSlow wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In English, you can always find a more complicated way to say something \nsimple (E.g. 'barbican' for 'watchtower')." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Except that barbican and watchtower each have specific and disparate \nmeanings which should bring quite different images to a reader's mind.\n\nMatthew" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay... but my point kind of was - we don't have two different words for \nit in German. (Though of course I'll only know for sure when I've checked \na specialised dictionary, I guess. There may be a word I just don't know.)\n\nFor the sake of curiosity: what *is* the difference? All my dictionary \nwould offer me for 'barbican' (I never looked it up before I had to \ntranslate it, being used to not understanding the occasional word in \nWolfe, and usually just going by context) was, well, 'watchtower'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Barbican is specifically a defensive construction protecting a gate. It \nmight be a single tower or formed of several, it might have no individual \ntowers at all but be a massive projection no higher than the walls. Some \nare so extensive that they might be considered forts or castles in their \nown right were it not for their function in relation to a superior \nstructure such as a fortress, castle, city, monastery and so on.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbican\n\nA watchtower is also defined by function: to keep watch or guard. Its \ndefining characteristic in terms of fortifications would be height and \naccess, or perhaps vantage if topography provides the height. There might \nalso be strength and defensibility but those are not direct \nrequirements. The medieval towers along the Pyreneese between France and \nSpain would be watchtowers although few if any are as large or tall as \nBaldanders' castle is described.\n\nSo when Severian tells of Roche \"And try to get through the barbican \nwithout a safe conduct? They'd send to Master Guloes.\" it is a gate both \nfortified and guarded.\n\n(That was easy, being on the first page, but reminds me that I'd love an \nelectronically searchable text!)\n\nWolfe's use of language is subtle and sometimes Baroque but I can't think \nof an example where precision is sacrificed to ornament. If he uses two \nwords for apparently similar things I think one can be confident that he \nintends to evoke different images in the reader's mind.\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "<009701c4da34$2957c8f0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2004-12-04T11:05:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<5.2.1.1.0.20041204113817.02c897a0@pop.ntlworld.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(That was easy, being on the first page, but reminds me that I'd love an\nelectronically searchable text!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does the British Amazon.com have a Search Inside feature yet?\n\nI've found the one available on the American side invaluable.\n\nUnfortunately after a certain number of page views it won't let me read\nwhole pages from the same book anymore. But it will let me search words and\nprovide excerpts indefinitely. So as long as I know what I'm looking for or\nif I have a copy of the book handy...\n\nPersonally, I'd be glad to split up the task of copying Wolfe's novels to a\ntext document, but that would probably be a violation of copyright in\nitself.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00a301c4da35$c7ff3690$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2004-12-04T11:16:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<009701c4da34$2957c8f0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Personally, I'd be glad to split up the task of copying Wolfe's novels to a\ntext document, but that would probably be a violation of copyright in\nitself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course I mean \"electronic text document\"\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20041204195441.30909.qmail@web14728.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Maru", "address": "marudubshinki at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2004-12-04T11:54:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<00a301c4da35$c7ff3690$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well... I probably shouldn't say this, but floating around on the\nedonkey network is a zip file containing the BotNS, the BotLS,\nteh doctor death & island stories, war beneath the tree & seven\namerican nights.\n~Maru" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:\nPersonally, I'd be glad to split up the task of copying\nWolfe's novels to a\ntext document, but that would probably be a violation of\ncopyright in\nitself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course I mean \"electronic text document\"\n\n~ Crush\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<17883243656.20041205233142@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanisław Bocian", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2004-12-05T14:19:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041204105007.036bd598@pop.gmx.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Saturday, December 4, 2004, 10:53:03 AM, Hmpf MacSlow wrote:\n\n\n\n\nHM> Okay... but my point kind of was - we don't have two different words for it \nHM> in German. (Though of course I'll only know for sure when I've checked a \nHM> specialised dictionary, I guess. There may be a word I just don't know.)\n\nHM> For the sake of curiosity: what *is* the difference? All my dictionary \nHM> would offer me for 'barbican' (I never looked it up before I had to \nHM> translate it, being used to not understanding the occasional word in Wolfe, \nHM> and usually just going by context) was, well, 'watchtower'.\n\nHM> Hmpf - always eager to learn new English vocabulary\n\nBarbican according to Oxford English Dictionary\n\nbarbican 1: 1. An outer fortification or defence to a city or castle,\nesp. a double tower erected over a gate or bridge; often made strong\nand lofty, and serving as a watch-tower. b. Retained as name of a\nstreet in London. †2. A temporary wooden tower or bulwark. †3. A\nloophole in the wall of a castle or city, through which missiles might\nbe discharged. Obs.\n\nAccording to my dictionaries, the German for barbican is\nBarbakane,die; Torvorwerk, das\n\nSome photos and a drawing of a Barbican in Cracow (Barbakan in Polish)\n\nhttp://www.wawel.net/images/forty/archiw_miasto/1.htm\nhttp://www.wawel.net/images/forty/styczen2003/2.htm\nhttp://www.wawel.net/images/forty/styczen2003/1.htm\nhttp://www.wawel.net/images/forty/styczen2003/3.htm\n\nhttp://www.wawel.net/wojsko.htm" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Stanis³aw Bocian\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nStartuj z INTERIA.PL!!! >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1837" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041205233129.03b67560@pop.gmx.net>", "from": { "name": "Hmpf MacSlow", "address": "hmpf1998 at gmx.net" }, "date": "2004-12-05T14:43:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<17883243656.20041205233142@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "According to my dictionaries, the German for barbican is\nBarbakane,die; Torvorwerk, das" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow. Methinks I need a better dictionary!\n\nBut, as I said, checking all kinds of dictionaries at the university \nlibrary and the Deutsche Bibliothek will probably help a lot. For the time \nbeing, I just put the 'strange' words in brackets behind my temporary \ntranslations of them. When I've collected enough of them I'll make a trip \nto the library to check them all.\n\nJust curious: how well known is the word 'barbican' among native speakers \nof English with an 'advanced' vocabulary? My German vocabulary is pretty \nextensive, or so I'm told - I'm a native speaker, I've always read a lot, \nI've had thirteen years of 'normal' school, five years of university, three \nand a half years of professional training as a goldsmith (including art \nhistory classes), I visit museums and am interested in all kinds of \n'cultural stuff' - yet I've never in my life heard or read the word \n'Barbakane' anywhere, I think.\n\n(Part of the 'problem' may be that I've been reading more English than \nGerman for years now...)\n\nI'm just curious if that word, and others that Wolfe is using, could be \nsaid to be slightly more 'common' in English than they are in German, or if \nthey're just as obscure.\n\nHmpf" } ] }, { "message_id": "<41B392DC.7050003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "maru", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2004-12-05T15:00:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041205233129.03b67560@pop.gmx.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, barbican, to me, is pretty familiar- familiar enough I didn't even \nnotice that it was supposed to be obscure. This is probably because I \nused to read a lot about castles and barbican is about the only other \nword used to describe 'gate'. But some are pretty obscure- previously \nI'd never seen 'autarch' used as a noun (only as a small area of \npolitcal theory-'autarchy') & I'm still not sure if 'lictor' is a real \nword. And 'cacogen'? Dunno.\n~Maru" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmpf MacSlow wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "According to my dictionaries, the German for barbican is\nBarbakane,die; Torvorwerk, das" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wow. Methinks I need a better dictionary!\n\nBut, as I said, checking all kinds of dictionaries at the university \nlibrary and the Deutsche Bibliothek will probably help a lot. For the \ntime being, I just put the 'strange' words in brackets behind my \ntemporary translations of them. When I've collected enough of them \nI'll make a trip to the library to check them all.\n\nJust curious: how well known is the word 'barbican' among native \nspeakers of English with an 'advanced' vocabulary? My German \nvocabulary is pretty extensive, or so I'm told - I'm a native speaker, \nI've always read a lot, I've had thirteen years of 'normal' school, \nfive years of university, three and a half years of professional \ntraining as a goldsmith (including art history classes), I visit \nmuseums and am interested in all kinds of 'cultural stuff' - yet I've \nnever in my life heard or read the word 'Barbakane' anywhere, I think.\n\n(Part of the 'problem' may be that I've been reading more English than \nGerman for years now...)\n\nI'm just curious if that word, and others that Wolfe is using, could \nbe said to be slightly more 'common' in English than they are in \nGerman, or if they're just as obscure.\n\nHmpf\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041205234518.03ba5e80@pop.gmx.net>", "from": { "name": "Hmpf MacSlow", "address": "hmpf1998 at gmx.net" }, "date": "2004-12-05T15:01:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041205233129.03b67560@pop.gmx.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm just curious if that word, and others that Wolfe is using, could be \nsaid to be slightly more 'common' in English than they are in German, or \nif they're just as obscure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just thought of one thing that seems to indicate that \n'Barbakane/barbican' may be more obscure in German than in English: the \nfact that my English-German dictionary (PONS Globalw?rterbuch in two \nvolumes) does not know the word 'Barbakane' - I tried to look it up in the \nGerman-to-English volume - but *does* know 'barbican'.\n\nThis, of course, would confront the translator with an interesting \nconundrum: choose the exact translation, 'Barbakane', and risk that (if \ncases like that are frequent) the resulting German text will be hugely more \nobscure to German readers than to English readers; or choose an approximate \ntranslation that will lose the special flavour but possibly convey the \nmeaning better to German readers? I've always held that, even or perhaps \nespecially in the light of my not understanding quite a few words in \nTBotNS, these words still were essential to the book's effect. Like Elvish \nand other strange languages in Tolkien's works, the obscure and archaic \nwords in Wolfe's help to create *atmosphere*, they help to make Urth feel \nstrange, different from our present world, but real, as well. Since they \nare real words that even if we do not understand them anymore carry a kind \nof diffuse memory of past times, they also give us an impression of the \ndepth of time. I wouldn't want to lose that in a translation, but on the \nother hand, I wouldn't want a German version of the text be that much more \ninaccessible than the original...\n\nWell... fortunately for me, I'm only doing this translation for myself and \nnot for other readers. This way, my decision doesn't really carry that much \nweight. *g*\n\nHmpf " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041206000125.03b93a38@pop.gmx.net>", "from": { "name": "Hmpf MacSlow", "address": "hmpf1998 at gmx.net" }, "date": "2004-12-05T15:03:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<41B392DC.7050003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:59 PM 12/5/2004, you wrote:\nWell, barbican, to me, is pretty familiar- familiar enough I didn't even \nnotice that it was supposed to be obscure. This is probably because I used \nto read a lot about castles and barbican is about the only other word used \nto describe 'gate'. But some are pretty obscure- previously I'd never \nseen 'autarch' used as a noun (only as a small area of politcal \ntheory-'autarchy') & I'm still not sure if 'lictor' is a real word." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "AFAIK, a lictor was some kind of Roman official.\n\nAutarch, I think, may be Wolfe's creation, though. It's 'Autarch' in the \nGerman translation, too.\n\nOkay, and it definitely looks like the German version of the word is more \nobscure...\n\nWell, of course there's still the option of translating it as 'Torvorwerk', \nbut that would also lose the flavour...\n\nHmpf" } ] }, { "message_id": "<41B39442.6070506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "maru", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2004-12-05T15:06:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041206000125.03b93a38@pop.gmx.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shouldn't that be 'Autark'?\n~Maru\nJust seems like having a k is the way to germanicise it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmpf MacSlow wrote:\n......\n\nAutarch, I think, may be Wolfe's creation, though. It's 'Autarch' in \nthe German translation, too.\n\nOkay, and it definitely looks like the German version of the word is \nmore obscure...\n\nWell, of course there's still the option of translating it as \n'Torvorwerk', but that would also lose the flavour...\n\nHmpf\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5.2.1.1.0.20041205230319.02c9cd78@pop.ntlworld.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2004-12-05T15:10:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041205233129.03b67560@pop.gmx.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 22:42 05/12/2004, you wrote:\nJust curious: how well known is the word 'barbican' among native speakers \nof English with an 'advanced' vocabulary?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect that this is going to vary with location but for English English \nspeakers I'd have thought the word if not commonplace at least not \nparticularly rare.\n\nA number of cities other than London have areas and institutions named \nBarbican because of a historic link with such a structure, Plymouth, \nGloucester and York immediately come to mind.\n\nMatthew " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041206000711.03bc1c08@pop.gmx.net>", "from": { "name": "Hmpf MacSlow", "address": "hmpf1998 at gmx.net" }, "date": "2004-12-05T15:11:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<41B39442.6070506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:05 AM 12/6/2004, you wrote:\nShouldn't that be 'Autark'?\n~Maru\nJust seems like having a k is the way to germanicise it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nope. We like 'ch', in Germany. ;-) We also have 'Monarch' - as well as \n'Monarchie', 'Hierarchie', etc.\n\nInterestingly, 'autark' does exist as a German word - but it's an adjective \nand it means 'self-sufficient'.\n\nHmpf" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5.2.1.1.0.20041205231148.02cb2170@pop.ntlworld.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2004-12-05T15:23:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<41B392DC.7050003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 22:59 05/12/2004, you wrote:\n'lictor'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dictionary.com : A Roman functionary who carried fasces when attending a \nmagistrate in public appearances.\n\nFasces; A bundle of rods bound together around an ax with the blade \nprojecting, carried before ancient Roman magistrates as an emblem of \nauthority.\n\nSo Severian being what the mob might term an official enforcer is quite \nreasonably termed a lictor; most especially when he describes attending the \nArchon in court because of the the magisterial nature of that duty.\n\n\nFor cacogen there is no direct reference but the adjectival form cacogenic \nmeans pertaining to or causing degeneration in the offspring produced.\n\nNow as the servants of the servants (of the servants?) of the Increate, \neach are created and with each creation each is debased from their creators.\n\nInterestingly Severian knows them by that name long before he has any \ninkling of their nature. A very erudite reader (more clever than I) might \nfrom that word and other hints have divined that facet of their nature \nbefore it is made clear to Severian.\n\nMatthew " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5.2.1.1.0.20041205232511.00c59918@pop.ntlworld.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2004-12-05T15:50:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041206000125.03b93a38@pop.gmx.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 23:03 05/12/2004, you wrote:\nAutarch, I think, may be Wolfe's creation, though. It's 'Autarch' in the \nGerman translation, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, the meaning given in the book \"self ruler\" is actually very accurate \nand more literally accurate than the usual meaning given of sole or single \nruler. Or perhaps ruler of the whole contrast Tetrach, ruler of a fourth \npart. It's the form that Wolfe uses that is odd\n\nAutarchy is a political system governed by a single individual, also \nautarky and autocracy.\n\nThere is a wonderful Lupine irony there because the Autarch is not singular \nbut legion.\n\n\n\\Au\"tar*chy\\, n. [Gr. — independence; a'yto`s self + 'arkei^n to be \nsufficient.]\nSelf-sufficiency. [Obs.] --Milton.\n\nhttp://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=autarchy\n\n\nNow it's interesting to me that the alternative \"monarch\" which started \nwith the same political meaning, the rule of one, would not have the same \nweight because subsequent changes in the office mean that, at least in the \nWest, remaining monarchs are emphatically not autarchs there not having \nbeen a working autocracy since the fall of the Tzars.\n\nYes Wolfe does use the word monarch. He uses it colloquially \"monarch of \nbears\" as we might say \"king of beasts\" - Wolfe does not have people of \nUrth describe Severian as \"king\" but the cacogens use that word for \nhim. Then monarch occurs in Severian's dream of Master Malrubius where he \nis asked to set out the forms of government and again in describing \nTyphon. Perhaps perversely it seems that both instances one is intended to \nread absolute ruler as in autarch rather than the new-fangled \nconstitutional variety so I suppose that these monarchs, the first abstract \nthe second historic, are so called to distinguish them from the Autarch of \nthe Commonwealth.\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5.2.1.1.0.20041205235126.02cbe9b0@pop.ntlworld.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2004-12-05T15:52:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.0.14.0.20041206000711.03bc1c08@pop.gmx.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 23:11 05/12/2004, you wrote:\nInterestingly, 'autark' does exist as a German word - but it's an \nadjective and it means 'self-sufficient'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow! The same sense in which Milton used \"autarchy\" in English in the 17C.\n\nMatthew " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Rabin", "address": "wolfe-lists at danrabin.com" }, "date": "2004-12-05T21:23:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<5.2.1.1.0.20041205235126.02cbe9b0@pop.ntlworld.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmpf MacSlow asks about the familiarity of the word \"barbican\" to \nnative speakers of English. It's a really important question, \nbecause Wolfe's use of unfamiliar words and neologisms is an \nessential part of the style he adopted for _The Book of the New Sun_. \nIt gives a feeling of remoteness in time and place.\n\nWolfe discusses his choice of words in his \"translator's notes\" at \nthe ends of the volumes. These are worth considering.\n\nI've noticed several categories of odd words in TBotNS. I'll comment \non how these categories affect me as a native reader of English with \na good vocabulary, born and raised in the United States of America in \nthe late 20th century:\n\n1. Authentic English archaisms, especially from subjects no longer \nmuch studied. \"Barbican\" is in this category, as are \"falchion\" and \n\"destrier\". I have to look these up, but it's possible to get a lot \nfrom context, such as \"barbican\" and \"bartizan\" being parts of \ndefensive walls, \"falchion\" being a type of sword-like weapon, \n\"arbalest\" being something like a crossbow, \"destrier\" having the \nrole of a horse, and so forth. Is \"hetman\" in this category?\n\n2. Derivations from Latin or Greek scientific terminology, such as \n\"baluchither\" from \"baluchitherium\" or \"smilodon\" taken as is. \n\"Arctother\" might be in this class. These are decipherable if one \nhas seen the science. Here the effect is that things from our \nfossilized past are everyday animals in Severian's time and place. \nWolfe-as-\"translator\" comments on this technique.\n\n3. Latin and Greek neologisms or rarities, such as \"alghedonic\" \n(\"pain-pleasure\"), \"chrisos\" (\"gold\"?), \"archon\" (ruler), \"cacogen\" \n(\"ugly origin\"?), \"hierodule\" (\"holy slave\") Wolfe-as-translator \nsays he uses Latin to represent languages that seem learned but \nextinct to Severian (as in the name \"Terminus Est\"). Unfamiliar \nwords with classical roots can at best be decoded by present-day \nreaders--they give the feeling that Severian's environment retains \nmuch that is ancient, like coming across a Greek or Roman ruin in the \nmiddle of a European town (something we don't have here in America).\n\nIt's worth noting that English went through a period a few hundred \nyears ago of introducing Classical terms into the language, many of \nwhich have fallen by the wayside, but many of which remain. I have \nthe impression that German prefers not to make Classical borrowings, \nbut the cultural relationship of Classical civilization to the \nreader's milieu is probably much the same for German as for English.\n\n4. Authentic religious and philosophical terms: \"theodicy\", \n\"theanthropos\", \"monstrance\"; occasional Hebraisms (\"Adonai\"). I'm \nnot familiar with Christian theology, but here again I'm generally \nable to deduce the subject of discourse from context without being \nprecisely correct.\n\nNow I have a question: is \"pinakotheken\" recognizable in contemporary \nGerman? If so, it certainly shouldn't be translated as itself! It's \nvery obscure in English, and serves to give the feeling that \nSeverian's mileu has some very unfamiliar names for very familiar \nthings. Odd, though, that the word occurs near the episode in \nUltan's library, which is called a \"library\", not a \"bibliothek\".\n\nSince we've discussed Tolkien recently, it's worth noting that\n\nA. Wolfe corresponded with Tolkien concerning the etymology of \"warg\",\nB. Tolkien played this game of preserving linguistic relationships \nacross a \"translation\", except he actually invented some of the \nlanguages of the imaginary locale. He knew that a Gondorian accent \nin Westron sounded archaic and elevated to Hobbits of the Shire, and \nhe knew that Galadriel's chant \"Namarie\" was in a poetic register of \nQuenya. Nobody like Tolkien, not in _my_ Book of Gold anyhow.\n\n -- Dan Rabin" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00da01c4db7c$5369b240$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2004-12-06T02:14:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regarding the problems in translating Wolfe in to other languages, is it the\ncase that French and Germans *do not* borrow from other languages? I\nunderstand that the French have a governmental standards board the\ndetermines whether words are \"French\" or not but does this prohibit French\nor Germans from using them in literature?\n\nI ask this because in \"Castle of the Otter/Days\" Wolfe compares his use of\nobscure words to the use of science fictiony made-up words. Would there\nreally be a problem with using a word like \"barbicon\" if no exact such word\nexisted in German?\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<151130124481.20041206123256@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanisław Bocian", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2004-12-06T03:21:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Monday, December 6, 2004, 6:23:31 AM, Dan Rabin wrote:\n\n\nDR> Is \"hetman\" in this category?\n\nAccording to Oxford English Dictionary\n\n\"hetman 1: A captain or military commander in Poland and countries\nformerly united or subject to it; whence subsequently retained as a\ntitle among the Cossacks. Under the suzerainty of Poland, 1592–1654,\n‘the hetman of the Cossacks’ was a semi-independent prince or viceroy.\nHis title and authority were at first continued after the acceptance\nof Russian suzerainty by the Cossacks in 1654; but the power and\nprivileges of the office were gradually curtailed and abolished. In\nthe late 19th c. the title ‘Hetman (ataman) of all the Cossacks’ was\nan appanage of the Cesarevitch, who was represented by a ‘hetman by\ndelegation’, for each of the territorial divisions. Subordinate\nCossack chiefs had also the title (ataman). Hence \"hetmanate,\n\"hetmanship\"\n\nAccording to Polish dictionaries, \"hetman\" comes from a Czech world\n\"hejtman\" meaning commander, headman, which in turn comes from older\nGerman Hoeftmann or Heubtmann (modern der Hauptmann - captain,\nleader).\n\nIn Poland till XVIII century a Hetman was a Commander-in-chief. (There\nwere four of them - Grand and Field Hetmans for Crown of Poland and\nfor Grand Duchy of Lithuania.) Among Cossacks ataman was any leader,\nnot necessarily a Commander-in-chief.\n\nIt is a favorite word of Jack Vance, used usually to mean a headman of\na primitive tribe or village. Its use by Wolfe is clearly a kind of\nhomage to Jack Vance (cf. deodand), since the village hetman in the\n\"Sword of the Lictor\" is a very Vancian character. There are many just\nsuch village hetmans in books of Vance, from the Dying Earth to Ports\nof Call.\n\n\nJack Vance, the Dying Earth, Guyal of S\n\n\"A gaggle of surly louts appeared and surrounded him with expressions\nof curiosity. Guyal, no less than the villagers, had questions to ask,\nbut none would speak till the hetman strode up-a burly man who wore a\nshaggy fur hat, a cloak of brown fur and a bristling beard, so that it\nwas hard to see where one ended and the other began. He exuded a\nrancid odor which displeased Guyal, who, from motives of courtesy,\nkept his distaste concealed.\n\n\"Where go you?\" asked the hetman.\n\n\"I wish to cross the mountains to the Museum of Man,\" said\nGuyal.\"Which way does the trail lead?\"\n\nThe hetman pointed out a notch on the silhouette of the mountains.\n\"There is Omona Gap, which is the shortest and best route, though\nthere is no trail. None comes and none goes, since when you pass the\nGap, you walk an unknown land. And with no traffic there manifestly\nneed be no trail.\"\n\nThe news did not cheer Guyal. \"How then is it known\nthat Omona Gap is on the way to the Museum?\"\n\nThe hetman shrugged.\"Such is our tradition.\"\n\nGuyal turned his head at a hoarse snuffling and saw a pen of woven\nwattles. In a litter of filth and matted straw stood a number of\nhulking men eight or nine feet tall. They were naked, with shocks of\ndirty yellow hair and watery blue eyes. They had waxy faces and\nexpressions of crass stupidity. As Guyal watched, one of them ambled\nto a trough and noisily began gulping gray mash.\n\nGuyal said, \"What manner of things are these?\" The hetman blinked in\namusement to Guyal's naivete. \"Those are our oasts, naturally.\" And he\ngestured in disapprobation at Guyal's white horse. \"Never have I seen\na stranger oast than the one you bestride. Ours carry us easier and\nappear to be less vicious; in addition no flesh is more delicious than\noast properly braised and kettled.\"\n\nStanding close, he fondled the metal of Guyal's saddle and the red and\nyellow embroidered quilt. \"Your deckings however are rich and of\nsuperb quality. I will therefore bestow you my large and weighty oast\nin return for this creature with its accoutrements.\" Guyal politely\ndeclared himself satisfied with his present mount, and the hetman\nshrugged his shoulders.\"\n\nAdditionally notice the use of giants as mounts." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Stanis³aw Bocian\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nStartuj z INTERIA.PL!!! >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1837" } ] }, { "message_id": "<82FFF5CF-47A9-11D9-ABDD-0003939CE29C@earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2004-12-06T08:09:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<00da01c4db7c$5369b240$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not allowing a language to change is the surest way to make it \nirrelevant. That's why all the moaning about the death of the english \nlanguage makes me laugh. IMO it's as vital a language as ever because \nit's mutable. An obsession with words is like loving a dress more than \nthe woman it adorns. Fortunately for us, Wolfe loves the woman AND has \nexceptional taste in dresses.(this metaphor of course is gender \nreversible) As far as German and English, they are closely related in \nboth vocabulary and in sentence structure, closer than english is to \nany romance language. With a little digging I think a good translation \nwould be doable. Where there are latin, greek, and hebrew words, just \nuse them as is. The equivalents to obscure english words should be \neasily available, (as in the barbican example). Getting the right feel \nmight be hard, since German is such a straightforward language, and \nWolfe is anything and everything but. Then, if it was easy, someone \nprobably would have done it by now, huh?\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, December 6, 2004, at 02:14 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nRegarding the problems in translating Wolfe in to other languages, is \nit the\ncase that French and Germans *do not* borrow from other languages? I\nunderstand that the French have a governmental standards board the\ndetermines whether words are \"French\" or not but does this prohibit \nFrench\nor Germans from using them in literature?\n\nI ask this because in \"Castle of the Otter/Days\" Wolfe compares his \nuse of\nobscure words to the use of science fictiony made-up words. Would there\nreally be a problem with using a word like \"barbicon\" if no exact such \nword\nexisted in German?\n\n~ Crush\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173704120611312c5d455e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2004-12-06T11:41:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<82FFF5CF-47A9-11D9-ABDD-0003939CE29C@earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James:\n\nFrench does indeed borrow words, at least from English, like fer example \n\"le week-end.\" French academic purists rail against such things. Probably\nthe funniest example arose when they damned \"le pique-nique,\" which\ncame back to hit them in the face - the English word \"picnic\" was a\nborrowing from an old French word.\n\nMatthew:\n\nWhatever else \"cacogen\" may mean, it's a dead cert. that GW was very\nmuch conscious of its originary sense, \"shit-born.\"\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nFreedom has no barcode.\n --J.G. Ballard" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002301c4dbcd$b9ada4c0$bd406596@crunchynut>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2004-12-06T11:56:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BotNS in German", "in_reply_to": "<00da01c4db7c$5369b240$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding the problems in translating Wolfe in to other languages, is it \nthe\ncase that French and Germans *do not* borrow from other languages? I\nunderstand that the French have a governmental standards board the\ndetermines whether words are \"French\" or not but does this prohibit French\nor Germans from using them in literature?\n\nI ask this because in \"Castle of the Otter/Days\" Wolfe compares his use of\nobscure words to the use of science fictiony made-up words. Would there\nreally be a problem with using a word like \"barbicon\" if no exact such \nword\nexisted in German?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The biggest problem might be what to do with \"Baldanders\", who I think is a \nreasonably well-known chracter in German literature. " } ] } ] }