Subject: (urth) BotNS in German

From: Hmpf MacSlow <hmpf1998 at gmx.net>
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:00:20 +0000

But first: print-on-demand Lexicon Urthus? Very good news. :-)

Yeah, I know I said I'd go back to lurking, but circumstances drive me to 
posting again... circumstances being these: I have this habit of giving my 
mom who, fortunately, is really open-minded my favourite book of the year 
for Christmas. By this self-imposed 'rule' I should have given her BotNS 
last year already, but I was somewhat daunted by the task of finding copies 
of the German version. (I usually read books that were written in English 
in English, but my mom reads mostly German, and I certainly wouldn't ask 
her to read *Wolfe* in English.) But this year, I've found copies of all 
the five volumes, and one of them, UotNS, arrived today. I've only had a 
quick glance at it so far, but even so it is painfully obvious that the 
translation is, well, less than satisfactory. Severian's '... what I've 
done *to* Urth." has been turned into a '... what I've done *for* Urth*, 
Apheta is addressed as 'woman' instead of 'lady', etc. Unfortunately all 
the volumes have been translated by the same translator, so there's little 
hope of the other four volumes being any better.

Add to that the fact that the books have been out of print for years, and 
you can see why I as a German Wolfe fan feel both vaguely ashamed and 
enormously frustrated. I want to recommend this book to people I know, but 
it's unavailable! (I'm translating the book myself now, as 'therapy' for 
that frustration, but of course there is little chance of me finishing that 
work, much less finishing it within any kind of useful timeframe. It 
clearly is a mammoth task.)

In my opinion it is a crying shame that The Book of the New Sun is not 
currently available in a German edition. I don't know if there is any 
chance of us lowly readers influencing the decisions of big publishing 
houses, but maybe it's worth a try. Are there any other German Wolfe 
readers on this list? Maybe a few well-argued letters to Heyne, the 
'current' publisher, and perhaps to Suhrkamp and Klett-Cotta, which IMO 
would me much better suited to Wolfe than Heyne is, couldn't hurt... and if 
we're asking for a reprint, we can just as well ask for a new translation, 
too...

The worst that can happen is that they tell us 'no', in which case we'll be 
no worse off than we are now.

Hmpf

---

From: Maru <marudubshinki at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:55:57 +0000

Good grief!  How on earth do you plan to replicate his
vocabulary?
Does German even have an analogue to the OED?
Will you add critical information?
~Maru
Even if you stop tomorrow, I admire the scope of your dreams and
devotion.

--- Hmpf MacSlow <hmpf1998 at gmx.net> wrote:

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From: Hmpf MacSlow <hmpf1998 at gmx.net>
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 16:51:35 +0000

>Good grief!  How on earth do you plan to replicate his

Uhm... I dunno. Consulting a really good dictionary would be my first 
guess. Hey, I've only just started, and I'm not sure yet how serious I am. 
Thing is, I want to teach myself how to translate literature, and have in 
fact been doing the odd little translation job (not literature, though) on 
the side for a while now, and translating Gene Wolfe certainly is one hell 
of an efficient way of learning to translate.

>Does German even have an analogue to the OED?

I'm pretty sure we do, and I'm pretty sure that theological, architectural, 
military etc. dictionaries would/will be a great help, too. I'm lucky, too, 
as I happen to live in the city where the Deutsche Bibliothek is - that's 
our equivalent to the Library of Congress. So, whatever book I might need, 
I could get - at least to look at. They don't give books away there. Our 
university library isn't half bad, either.

A more difficult problem might be that German, as far as I am aware of - 
and my German vocabulary is pretty big, even for a native speaker, or so 
I'm told - does not have as many foreign words as English. In English, you 
can always find a more complicated way to say something simple (E.g. 
'barbican' for 'watchtower'). I'm not sure that's always possible in 
German. So, a bit of the special flavour of the book will definitely get 
lost. But then, something is always 'lost in translation'.

>Will you add critical information?

What kind of information? I *have* no critical information! Besides... if 
I'm doing this, I'm doing it purely for my edification, not for 
publication. I mean, I sure wouldn't mind if someone wanted to publish it, 
but the problem - apart from the fact that there are probably better 
translators out there than me, and I'm not a recognized 'pro' - is that 
it's already been published. It's just out of print.

>Even if you stop tomorrow, I admire the scope of your dreams and

LOL... yeah, 'delusions of grandeur' is my middle name. I'm also thinking 
about planning a convention right now (not Wolfe-related). I should try to 
remember that I'm supposed to be a student... and that I need to set some 
time aside for uni, and for earning a living... *g*

Hmpf

---

From: Christopher Culver <christopher_culver at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:50:03 +0000

Have you written to Wolfe and asked for permission? Translating
something requires the permission of the copyright holder, even if you
do not intend on making any money from the work.

Christopher Culver

---

From: Maru <marudubshinki at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:50:32 +0000

What I meant was like exegesis, hermeunetics, critical
interpretation... stuff like a dramatis personae, perhaps an
introduction on just what was lost in translation, perhaps some
background info on wolfe... etc.
~Maru
And yeah, annoying as it is sometimes, the promiscuity of English
comes in handy sometimes.
 
> time aside for uni, and for earning a living... *g*

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From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:06:15 +0000

>do not intend on making any money from the work.

Even if you don't publish it? Maybe Hmpf just a good copy for Mom to read?

---

From: Hmpf MacSlow <hmpf1998 at gmx.net>
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 01:11:37 +0000

>Even if you don't publish it? Maybe Hmpf just a good copy for Mom to read?

AFAIK I don't need a permission to translate it for purely my own (and 
possibly, you're right, my mom's) use. I mean, I'm doing this purely for 
practice, really.

Hmpf

---

From: Matthew Malthouse <matthew.malthouse at ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 01:23:08 +0000

At 00:51 04/12/2004, Hmpf MacSlow wrote:
>In English, you can always find a more complicated way to say something 
>simple (E.g. 'barbican' for 'watchtower').

Except that barbican and watchtower each have specific and disparate 
meanings which should bring quite different images to a reader's mind.

Matthew

---

From: Matthew Malthouse <matthew.malthouse at ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 01:44:58 +0000

>Even if you don't publish it? Maybe Hmpf just a good copy for Mom to read?

The distinction is indeed in publication not profit.

A translation as a private exercise requires no permission but even placing 
such a document in a university library would.

Article 8 of the Berne Convention:
>Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall 
>enjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorising the translation of 
>their works throughout the term of protection of their rights in the 
>original works.

Their "rights in the original works" being elsewhere defined.

Complications can arise because the various signatory states implement the 
convention by national law and there are consequently differences in 
interpretation.  Under United Kingdom statute 
http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880048_en_1.htm giving a fair 
copy of your translation to mother might indeed be considered a form of 
publication but I have a fair confidence that any attempt to prosecute on 
such a basis would be judged mischievous, possibly malicious and certainly 
not in the public interest.

  Matthew

---

From: Hmpf MacSlow <hmpf1998 at gmx.net>
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 01:53:17 +0000

>meanings which should bring quite different images to a reader's mind.

Okay... but my point kind of was - we don't have two different words for it 
in German. (Though of course I'll only know for sure when I've checked a 
specialised dictionary, I guess. There may be a word I just don't know.)

For the sake of curiosity: what *is* the difference? All my dictionary 
would offer me for 'barbican' (I never looked it up before I had to 
translate it, being used to not understanding the occasional word in Wolfe, 
and usually just going by context) was, well, 'watchtower'.

Hmpf - always eager to learn new English vocabulary

---

From: Matthew Malthouse <matthew.malthouse at ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 04:34:21 +0000

At 09:53 04/12/2004, you wrote:
>Okay... but my point kind of was - we don't have two different words for 
>it in German. (Though of course I'll only know for sure when I've checked 
>a specialised dictionary, I guess. There may be a word I just don't know.)
>
>translate it, being used to not understanding the occasional word in 
>Wolfe, and usually just going by context) was, well, 'watchtower'.

Barbican is specifically a defensive construction protecting a gate.  It 
might be a single tower or formed of several, it might have no individual 
towers at all but be a massive projection no higher than the walls.  Some 
are so extensive that they might be considered forts or castles in their 
own right were it not for their function in relation to a superior 
structure such as a fortress, castle, city, monastery and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbican

A watchtower is also defined by function: to keep watch or guard.  Its 
defining characteristic in terms of fortifications would be height and 
access, or perhaps vantage if topography provides the height.  There might 
also be strength and defensibility but those are not direct 
requirements.  The medieval towers along the Pyreneese between France and 
Spain would be watchtowers although few if any are as large or tall as 
Baldanders' castle is described.

So when Severian tells of Roche  "And try to get through the barbican 
without a safe conduct? They'd send to Master Guloes." it is a gate both 
fortified and guarded.

(That was easy, being on the first page, but reminds me that I'd love an 
electronically searchable text!)

Wolfe's use of language is subtle and sometimes Baroque but I can't think 
of an example where precision is sacrificed to ornament.  If he uses two 
words for apparently similar things I think one can be confident that he 
intends to evoke different images in the reader's mind.

Matthew

---

From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 11:05:07 +0000

>electronically searchable text!)

Does the British Amazon.com have a Search Inside feature yet?

I've found the one available on the American side invaluable.

Unfortunately after a certain number of page views it won't let me read
whole pages from the same book anymore. But it will let me search words and
provide excerpts indefinitely. So as long as I know what I'm looking for or
if I have a copy of the book handy...

Personally, I'd be glad to split up the task of copying Wolfe's novels to a
text document, but that would probably be a violation of copyright in
itself.

~ Crush

---

From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 11:16:49 +0000

>text document, but that would probably be a violation of copyright in

Of course I mean "electronic text document"

~ Crush

---

From: Maru <marudubshinki at yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 11:54:43 +0000

Well... I probably shouldn't say this, but floating around on the
edonkey network is a zip file containing the BotNS, the BotLS,
teh doctor death & island stories, war beneath the tree & seven
american nights.
~Maru

		
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From: Stanisław Bocian <sbocian at poczta.fm>
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 14:19:35 +0000

Saturday, December 4, 2004, 10:53:03 AM, Hmpf MacSlow wrote:

HM> Okay... but my point kind of was - we don't have two different words for it 
HM> in German. (Though of course I'll only know for sure when I've checked a 
HM> specialised dictionary, I guess. There may be a word I just don't know.)

HM> For the sake of curiosity: what *is* the difference? All my dictionary 
HM> would offer me for 'barbican' (I never looked it up before I had to 
HM> translate it, being used to not understanding the occasional word in Wolfe, 
HM> and usually just going by context) was, well, 'watchtower'.

HM> Hmpf - always eager to learn new English vocabulary

Barbican according to Oxford English Dictionary

barbican 1: 1. An outer fortification or defence to a city or castle,
esp. a double tower  erected over a gate or bridge; often made strong
and lofty, and serving as  a watch-tower.  b. Retained as name of a
street in London. †2. A temporary wooden tower or bulwark. †3. A
loophole in the wall of a castle or city, through which missiles might
be discharged. Obs.

According to my dictionaries, the German for barbican is
Barbakane,die; Torvorwerk, das

Some photos and a drawing of a Barbican in Cracow (Barbakan in Polish)

http://www.wawel.net/images/forty/archiw_miasto/1.htm
http://www.wawel.net/images/forty/styczen2003/2.htm
http://www.wawel.net/images/forty/styczen2003/1.htm
http://www.wawel.net/images/forty/styczen2003/3.htm

http://www.wawel.net/wojsko.htm

--

Stanis³aw Bocian

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Startuj z INTERIA.PL!!! >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1837

---

From: Hmpf MacSlow <hmpf1998 at gmx.net>
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 14:43:14 +0000

>Barbakane,die; Torvorwerk, das

Wow. Methinks I need a better dictionary!

But, as I said, checking all kinds of dictionaries at the university 
library and the Deutsche Bibliothek will probably help a lot. For the time 
being, I just put the 'strange' words in brackets behind my temporary 
translations of them. When I've collected enough of them I'll make a trip 
to the library to check them all.

Just curious: how well known is the word 'barbican' among native speakers 
of English with an 'advanced' vocabulary? My German vocabulary is pretty 
extensive, or so I'm told - I'm a native speaker, I've always read a lot, 
I've had thirteen years of 'normal' school, five years of university, three 
and a half years of professional training as a goldsmith (including art 
history classes), I visit museums and am interested in all kinds of 
'cultural stuff' - yet I've never in my life heard or read the word 
'Barbakane' anywhere, I think.

(Part of the 'problem' may be that I've been reading more English than 
German for years now...)

I'm just curious if that word, and others that Wolfe is using, could be 
said to be slightly more 'common' in English than they are in German, or if 
they're just as obscure.

Hmpf

---

From: maru <marudubshinki at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 15:00:36 +0000

Well, barbican, to me, is pretty familiar- familiar enough I didn't even 
notice that it was supposed to be obscure. This is probably because I 
used to read a lot about castles and barbican is about the only other 
word used to describe 'gate'.  But some are pretty obscure- previously 
I'd never seen 'autarch' used as a noun (only as a small area of 
politcal theory-'autarchy') & I'm still not sure if 'lictor' is a real 
word. And 'cacogen'? Dunno.
~Maru

Hmpf MacSlow wrote:

> library and the Deutsche Bibliothek will probably help a lot. For the 
> time being, I just put the 'strange' words in brackets behind my 
> temporary translations of them. When I've collected enough of them 
> I'll make a trip to the library to check them all.
>
> Just curious: how well known is the word 'barbican' among native 
> speakers of English with an 'advanced' vocabulary? My German 
> vocabulary is pretty extensive, or so I'm told - I'm a native speaker, 
> I've always read a lot, I've had thirteen years of 'normal' school, 
> five years of university, three and a half years of professional 
> training as a goldsmith (including art history classes), I visit 
> museums and am interested in all kinds of 'cultural stuff' - yet I've 
> never in my life heard or read the word 'Barbakane' anywhere, I think.
>
> I'm just curious if that word, and others that Wolfe is using, could 
> be said to be slightly more 'common' in English than they are in 
> German, or if they're just as obscure.
>
> Hmpf
>
>
>
>
>
>

---

From: Hmpf MacSlow <hmpf1998 at gmx.net>
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 15:01:21 +0000

>said to be slightly more 'common' in English than they are in German, or 
>if they're just as obscure.

I just thought of one thing that seems to indicate that 
'Barbakane/barbican' may be more obscure in German than in English: the 
fact that my English-German dictionary (PONS Globalw?rterbuch in two 
volumes) does not know the word 'Barbakane' - I tried to look it up in the 
German-to-English volume - but *does* know 'barbican'.

This, of course, would confront the translator with an interesting 
conundrum: choose the exact translation, 'Barbakane', and risk that (if 
cases like that are frequent) the resulting German text will be hugely more 
obscure to German readers than to English readers; or choose an approximate 
translation that will lose the special flavour but possibly convey the 
meaning better to German readers? I've always held that, even or perhaps 
especially in the light of my not understanding quite a few words in 
TBotNS, these words still were essential to the book's effect. Like Elvish 
and other strange languages in Tolkien's works, the obscure and archaic 
words in Wolfe's help to create *atmosphere*, they help to make Urth feel 
strange, different from our present world, but real, as well. Since they 
are real words that even if we do not understand them anymore carry a kind 
of diffuse memory of past times, they also give us an impression of the 
depth of time. I wouldn't want to lose that in a translation, but on the 
other hand, I wouldn't want a German version of the text be that much more 
inaccessible than the original...

Well... fortunately for me, I'm only doing this translation for myself and 
not for other readers. This way, my decision doesn't really carry that much 
weight. *g*

Hmpf

---

From: Hmpf MacSlow <hmpf1998 at gmx.net>
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 15:03:25 +0000

At 11:59 PM 12/5/2004, you wrote:
>notice that it was supposed to be obscure. This is probably because I used 
>to read a lot about castles and barbican is about the only other word used 
>to describe 'gate'.  But some are pretty obscure- previously I'd never 
>seen 'autarch' used as a noun (only as a small area of politcal 
>theory-'autarchy') & I'm still not sure if 'lictor' is a real word.

AFAIK, a lictor was some kind of Roman official.

Autarch, I think, may be Wolfe's creation, though. It's 'Autarch' in the 
German translation, too.

Okay, and it definitely looks like the German version of the word is more 
obscure...

Well, of course there's still the option of translating it as 'Torvorwerk', 
but that would also lose the flavour...

Hmpf

---

From: maru <marudubshinki at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 15:06:35 +0000

Shouldn't that be 'Autark'?
~Maru
Just seems like having a k is the way to germanicise it.

Hmpf MacSlow wrote:

> ......
>
> Autarch, I think, may be Wolfe's creation, though. It's 'Autarch' in 
> the German translation, too.
>
> Okay, and it definitely looks like the German version of the word is 
> more obscure...
>
> Well, of course there's still the option of translating it as 
> 'Torvorwerk', but that would also lose the flavour...
>
> Hmpf
>
>
>

---

From: Matthew Malthouse <matthew.malthouse at ntlworld.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 15:10:35 +0000

At 22:42 05/12/2004, you wrote:
>of English with an 'advanced' vocabulary?

I suspect that this is going to vary with location but for English English 
speakers I'd have thought the word if not commonplace at least not 
particularly rare.

A number of cities other than London have areas and institutions named 
Barbican because of a historic link with such a structure, Plymouth, 
Gloucester and York immediately come to mind.

Matthew

---

From: Hmpf MacSlow <hmpf1998 at gmx.net>
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 15:11:51 +0000

>Just seems like having a k is the way to germanicise it.

Nope. We like 'ch', in Germany. ;-) We also have 'Monarch' - as well as 
'Monarchie', 'Hierarchie', etc.

Interestingly, 'autark' does exist as a German word - but it's an adjective 
and it means 'self-sufficient'.

Hmpf

---

From: Matthew Malthouse <matthew.malthouse at ntlworld.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 15:23:28 +0000

At 22:59 05/12/2004, you wrote:
>'lictor'

Dictionary.com : A Roman functionary who carried fasces when attending a 
magistrate in public appearances.

Fasces; A bundle of rods bound together around an ax with the blade 
projecting, carried before ancient Roman magistrates as an emblem of 
authority.

So Severian being what the mob might term an official enforcer is quite 
reasonably termed a lictor; most especially when he describes attending the 
Archon in court because of the the magisterial nature of that duty.

For cacogen there is no direct reference but the adjectival form cacogenic 
means pertaining to or causing degeneration in the offspring produced.

Now as the servants of the servants (of the servants?) of the Increate, 
each are created and with each creation each is debased from their creators.

Interestingly Severian knows them by that name long before he has any 
inkling of their nature.  A very erudite reader (more clever than I) might 
from that word and other hints have divined that facet of their nature 
before it is made clear to Severian.

Matthew

---

From: Matthew Malthouse <matthew.malthouse at ntlworld.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 15:50:39 +0000

>Autarch, I think, may be Wolfe's creation, though. It's 'Autarch' in the 

No, the meaning given in the book "self ruler" is actually very accurate 
and more literally accurate than the usual meaning given of sole or single 
ruler.  Or perhaps ruler of the whole contrast Tetrach, ruler of a fourth 
part.  It's the form that Wolfe uses that is odd

Autarchy is a political system governed by a single individual, also 
autarky and autocracy.

There is a wonderful Lupine irony there because the Autarch is not singular 
but legion.

\Au"tar*chy\, n. [Gr. — independence; a'yto`s self + 'arkei^n to be 
sufficient.]
Self-sufficiency. [Obs.] --Milton.

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=autarchy

Now it's interesting to me that the alternative "monarch" which started 
with the same political meaning, the rule of one, would not have the same 
weight because subsequent changes in the office mean that, at least in the 
West, remaining monarchs are emphatically not autarchs there not having 
been a working autocracy since the fall of the Tzars.

Yes Wolfe does use the word monarch.  He uses it colloquially "monarch of 
bears" as we might say "king of beasts" - Wolfe does not have people of 
Urth describe Severian as "king" but the cacogens use that word for 
him.  Then monarch occurs in Severian's dream of Master Malrubius where he 
is asked to set out the forms of government and again in describing 
Typhon.  Perhaps perversely it seems that both instances one is intended to 
read absolute ruler as in autarch rather than the new-fangled 
constitutional variety so I suppose that these monarchs, the first abstract 
the second historic, are so called to distinguish them from the Autarch of 
the Commonwealth.

Matthew

---

From: Matthew Malthouse <matthew.malthouse at ntlworld.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 15:52:27 +0000

At 23:11 05/12/2004, you wrote:
>Interestingly, 'autark' does exist as a German word - but it's an 
>adjective and it means 'self-sufficient'.

Wow!  The same sense in which Milton used "autarchy" in English in the 17C.

Matthew

---

From: Dan Rabin <wolfe-lists at danrabin.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 21:23:57 +0000

Hmpf MacSlow asks about the familiarity of the word "barbican" to 
native speakers of English.  It's a really important question, 
because Wolfe's use of unfamiliar words and neologisms is an 
essential part of the style he adopted for _The Book of the New Sun_. 
It gives a feeling of remoteness in time and place.

Wolfe discusses his choice of words in his "translator's notes" at 
the ends of the volumes.  These are worth considering.

I've noticed several categories of odd words in TBotNS.  I'll comment 
on how these categories affect me as a native reader of English with 
a good vocabulary, born and raised in the United States of America in 
the late 20th century:

1. Authentic English archaisms, especially from subjects no longer 
much studied.  "Barbican" is in this category, as are "falchion" and 
"destrier".  I have to look these up, but it's possible to get a lot 
from context, such as "barbican" and "bartizan" being parts of 
defensive walls, "falchion" being a type of sword-like weapon, 
"arbalest" being something like a crossbow, "destrier" having the 
role of a horse, and so forth.  Is "hetman" in this category?

2. Derivations from Latin or Greek scientific terminology, such as 
"baluchither" from "baluchitherium" or "smilodon" taken as is. 
"Arctother" might be in this class.  These are decipherable if one 
has seen the science.  Here the effect is that things from our 
fossilized past are everyday animals in Severian's time and place. 
Wolfe-as-"translator" comments on this technique.

3. Latin and Greek neologisms or rarities, such as "alghedonic" 
("pain-pleasure"), "chrisos" ("gold"?), "archon" (ruler), "cacogen" 
("ugly origin"?), "hierodule" ("holy slave")  Wolfe-as-translator 
says he uses Latin to represent languages that seem learned but 
extinct to Severian (as in the name "Terminus Est").  Unfamiliar 
words with classical roots can at best be decoded by present-day 
readers--they give the feeling that Severian's environment retains 
much that is ancient, like coming across a Greek or Roman ruin in the 
middle of a European town (something we don't have here in America).

It's worth noting that English went through a period a few hundred 
years ago of introducing Classical terms into the language, many of 
which have fallen by the wayside, but many of which remain.  I have 
the impression that German prefers not to make Classical borrowings, 
but the cultural relationship of Classical civilization to the 
reader's milieu is probably much the same for German as for English.

4.  Authentic religious and philosophical terms: "theodicy", 
"theanthropos", "monstrance"; occasional Hebraisms ("Adonai").  I'm 
not familiar with Christian theology, but here again I'm generally 
able to deduce the subject of discourse from context without being 
precisely correct.

Now I have a question: is "pinakotheken" recognizable in contemporary 
German?  If so, it certainly shouldn't be translated as itself!  It's 
very obscure in English, and serves to give the feeling that 
Severian's mileu has some very unfamiliar names for very familiar 
things.  Odd, though, that the word occurs near the episode in 
Ultan's library, which is called a "library", not a "bibliothek".

Since we've discussed Tolkien recently, it's worth noting that

A. Wolfe corresponded with Tolkien concerning the etymology of "warg",
B. Tolkien played this game of preserving linguistic relationships 
across a "translation", except he actually invented some of the 
languages of the imaginary locale.  He knew that a Gondorian accent 
in Westron sounded archaic and elevated to Hobbits of the Shire, and 
he knew that Galadriel's chant "Namarie" was in a poetic register of 
Quenya.  Nobody like Tolkien, not in _my_ Book of Gold anyhow.

   -- Dan Rabin

---

From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 02:14:11 +0000

Regarding the problems in translating Wolfe in to other languages, is it the
case that French and Germans *do not* borrow from other languages? I
understand that the French have a governmental standards board the
determines whether words are "French" or not but does this prohibit French
or Germans from using them in literature?

I ask this because in "Castle of the Otter/Days" Wolfe compares his use of
obscure words to the use of science fictiony made-up words. Would there
really be a problem with using a word like "barbicon" if no exact such word
existed in German?

~ Crush

---

From: Stanisław Bocian <sbocian at poczta.fm>
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 03:21:18 +0000

Monday, December 6, 2004, 6:23:31 AM, Dan Rabin wrote:

DR> Is "hetman" in this category?

According to Oxford English Dictionary

"hetman  1: A captain or military commander in Poland and countries
formerly united or subject to it; whence subsequently retained as a
title among the Cossacks. Under the suzerainty of Poland, 1592–1654,
‘the hetman of the Cossacks’ was a semi-independent prince or viceroy.
His title and authority were at first continued after the acceptance
of Russian suzerainty by the Cossacks in 1654; but the power and
privileges of the office were gradually curtailed and abolished. In
the late 19th c. the title ‘Hetman (ataman) of all the Cossacks’ was
an appanage of the Cesarevitch, who was represented by a ‘hetman by
delegation’, for each of the territorial divisions. Subordinate
Cossack chiefs had also the title (ataman). Hence "hetmanate,
"hetmanship"

According to Polish dictionaries, "hetman" comes from a Czech world
"hejtman" meaning commander, headman, which in turn comes from older
German Hoeftmann or Heubtmann (modern der Hauptmann - captain,
leader).

In Poland till XVIII century a Hetman was a Commander-in-chief. (There
were four of them - Grand and Field Hetmans for Crown of Poland and
for Grand Duchy of Lithuania.) Among Cossacks ataman was any leader,
not necessarily a Commander-in-chief.

It is a favorite word of Jack Vance, used usually to mean a headman of
a primitive tribe or village. Its use by Wolfe is clearly a kind of
homage to Jack Vance (cf. deodand), since the village hetman in the
"Sword of the Lictor" is a very Vancian character. There are many just
such village hetmans in books of Vance, from the Dying Earth to Ports
of Call.

Jack Vance, the Dying Earth, Guyal of S

"A gaggle of surly louts appeared and surrounded him with expressions
of curiosity. Guyal, no less than the villagers, had questions to ask,
but none would speak till the hetman strode up-a burly man who wore a
shaggy fur hat, a cloak of brown fur and a bristling beard, so that it
was hard to see where one ended and the other began. He exuded a
rancid odor which displeased Guyal, who, from motives of courtesy,
kept his distaste concealed.

"Where go you?" asked the hetman.

"I wish to cross the mountains to the Museum of Man," said
Guyal."Which way does the trail lead?"

The hetman pointed out a notch on the silhouette of the mountains.
"There is Omona Gap, which is the shortest and best route, though
there is no trail. None comes and none goes, since when you pass the
Gap, you walk an unknown land. And with no traffic there manifestly
need be no trail."

The news did not cheer Guyal. "How then is it known
that Omona Gap is on the way to the Museum?"

The hetman shrugged."Such is our tradition."

Guyal turned his head at a hoarse snuffling and saw a pen of woven
wattles. In a litter of filth and matted straw stood a number of
hulking men eight or nine feet tall. They were naked, with shocks of
dirty yellow hair and watery blue eyes. They had waxy faces and
expressions of crass stupidity. As Guyal watched, one of them ambled
to a trough and noisily began gulping gray mash.

Guyal said, "What manner of things are these?" The hetman blinked in
amusement to Guyal's naivete. "Those are our oasts, naturally." And he
gestured in disapprobation at Guyal's white horse. "Never have I seen
a stranger oast than the one you bestride. Ours carry us easier and
appear to be less vicious; in addition no flesh is more delicious than
oast properly braised and kettled."

Standing close, he fondled the metal of Guyal's saddle and the red and
yellow embroidered quilt. "Your deckings however are rich and of
superb quality. I will therefore bestow you my large and weighty oast
in return for this creature with its accoutrements." Guyal politely
declared himself satisfied with his present mount, and the hetman
shrugged his shoulders."

Additionally notice the use of giants as mounts.

--
Stanis³aw Bocian

---

From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 08:09:55 +0000

Not allowing a language to change is the surest way to make it 
irrelevant.  That's why all the moaning about the death of the english 
language makes me laugh.  IMO it's as vital a language as ever because 
it's mutable.  An obsession with words is like loving a dress more than 
the woman it adorns.  Fortunately for us, Wolfe loves the woman AND has 
exceptional taste in dresses.(this metaphor of course is gender 
reversible) As far as German and English, they are closely related in 
both vocabulary and in sentence structure, closer than english is to 
any romance language.  With a little digging I think a good translation 
would be doable.  Where there are latin, greek, and hebrew words, just 
use them as is.  The equivalents to obscure english words should be 
easily available, (as in the barbican example).  Getting the right feel 
might be hard, since German is such a straightforward language, and 
Wolfe is anything and everything but.  Then, if it was easy, someone 
probably would have done it by now, huh?

Don

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 11:41:02 +0000

French does indeed borrow words, at least from English, like fer example 
"le week-end." French academic purists rail against such things. Probably
the funniest example arose when they damned "le pique-nique," which
came back to hit them in the face - the English word "picnic"  was a
borrowing from an old French word.

Matthew:

Whatever else "cacogen" may mean, it's a dead cert. that GW was very
much conscious of its originary sense, "shit-born."

--Dan'l

-- 
www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
Freedom has no barcode.
     --J.G. Ballard

---

From: Andrew Bollen <abollen at internode.on.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 11:56:59 +0000

> really be a problem with using a word like "barbicon" if no exact such 

The biggest problem might be what to do with "Baldanders", who I think is a 
reasonably well-known chracter in German literature.