{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4268", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4268, "subject": "AI souls", "messages": 13, "voices": 8, "first": "2004-12-04T01:01:18+00:00", "last": "2004-12-08T13:09:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000301c4d9df$d0a93120$413ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2004-12-04T01:01:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AI souls", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sidestepping the dubious notion that chems were \"implanted\" with the brain\nscans of particular human beings, let us look at another example of\nmachine-based autonomous entities in Wolfe's work, one in which the author's\npresumed conviction that non-biological \"persons\" do indeed have \"souls\"\ncomparable to those of human beings can, I think, be more clearly\ndemonstrated. I refer to Sidero and his kind.\n\nSidero's kind started off as glorified spacesuits. He speaks first in the\nfollowing exchange with Severian in Chapter VIII of URTH:\n---------------------------------------\n\"You asked how we came to be. Do you know how your\nown race came to be?\"\n \"Only that we were animals who lived in trees. That is\nwhat the mystes say. Not the monkeys, since the monkeys\nare there still. Perhaps something like the zoanthropes,\nthough smaller. The zoanthropes always make for the\nmountains, I've noticed, and they climb trees in the high\njungle there. At any rate, these animals communicated\nwith one another, as even cattle do, and wolves, by certain\ncries and motions. Eventually, through the will of the\nIncreate, it came to be that those who communicated best\nsurvived while those who did so poorly perished.\"\n \"Is there no more?\"\n I shook my head. \"When they communicated well\nenough that they could be said to speak, they were men and\nwomen. Such are we still. Our hands were made to cling to\nbranches, our eyes to see the next branch as we move from\ntree to tree, our mouths to speak, and to chew fruit and\nfledglings. So are they still. But what of your own kind?\"\n \"Much like yours. If the story is true, the mates wanted\nshelter from the void, from destructive rays, the weapons\nof hostiles, and other things. They built hard coverings for\nthemselves. They wanted to be stronger too, for war and\nwork on deck. Then they put the liquid you saw into us so\nthat our arms and legs would move as they wanted, but\nwith greater force. Into our genators, I ought to have said.\nThey needed to communicate, so they added talk circuits.\nThen more circuits so we could do one thing as they did\nanother. Controllers so we could speak and act even when\nthey could not. Until at last we spoke in storage and acted\nwithout a mate inside.\"\n--------------------------------\n\nThis passage describes the evolutionary paths by which both man and android\nreached their present states, and it was by the Increate's will that it was\nso. At some point Sidero's kind became self-aware. In the case of both\n\"races\", speech was the defining element, what made a man a man and an\nandroid an android -- that and the ability to act autonomously.\n\nIf men have souls, according to the Bible, and if the men of the Bible were\nsuch as we, and if the Bible exists by the will of the Increate, then Sidero\nhas a soul, so far as Wolfe is concerned.\n\nConsider this: at one point Sidero expressed regret to Severian for certain\nactions he had taken against Severian. His conscious bothered him. To\nexperience guilt is to have knowledge of a concept of right and wrong. Such\nknowledge, and the ability to act in accordance with that knowledge, are the\ncriteria by which, according to Wolfe's chosen religion, the Increate judges\nmen. That judgement implies a reckoning of some kind, which doesn't\nnecessarily happen in life. That's where the notion of the soul comes in. No\nmatter how good or bad a man may be in the eyes of the Increate, when the\nbody dies, as it will eventually, it isn't over. It is the soul that\nsurvives and must endure that reckoning, to be rewarded or punished by will\nof the Increate.\n\nSidero didn't fear Severian or \"punishment\" by Tzadkiel for his actions; the\nworst Tzadkiel could do was \"kill\" him in some way. He was worried about how\nthe Increate would judge him. There was nothing to worry about if he didn't\nhave a soul.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000601c4da28$39653ea0$b33dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2004-12-04T09:39:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AI souls", "in_reply_to": "<000301c4d9df$d0a93120$413ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nactions he had taken against Severian. His conscious bothered him. To" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant, of course, \"His _conscience_ bothered him.\" Sheesh.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<009e01c4da35$9af0a300$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2004-12-04T11:15:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AI souls", "in_reply_to": "<000301c4d9df$d0a93120$413ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with Roy that Sidero expressing genuine regret for his actions does\nsuggest that Sidero might have a soul. But it isn't necessarily so. I'm a\nbit at a disadvantage since I'm currently working a contract in Savannah and\nall my books are in storage in Austin. Before I continue. Could someone post\nthe relevant text?\n\nMy conviction that the chems had *human* souls is a great deal more complex\nthan merely Rose's testimony. And Sidero, unlike Rose, never, as far as I\nrecall, considers the validity of his existence. Nevertheless, if it could\nbe proven that Sidero had evolved a soul it would at least show that Wolfe\nhad exemplified a situation in which Rose's rationale was irrelevant.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000601c4da5b$4e308be0$633ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2004-12-04T15:45:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AI souls", "in_reply_to": "<009e01c4da35$9af0a300$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nI agree with Roy that Sidero expressing genuine regret for his actions does\nsuggest that Sidero might have a soul. But it isn't necessarily so. I'm a\nbit at a disadvantage since I'm currently working a contract in Savannah\nand\nall my books are in storage in Austin. Before I continue. Could someone\npost\nthe relevant text?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From Chapter XIII, Sidero speaking:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "---------------------------------------------------------\n\n\"Let me explain before we argue again. I hurt you. It is\nmy right and duty to correct and chastise. Then I had joy of it.\"\n I asked him if he referred to his striking me when I lay\nunconscious, and he nodded. \"I must not.\" He seemed\nabout to speak further, but did not. After a moment he\nsaid, \"I cannot explain.\"\n \"We know what moral considerations are,\" I told him.\n \"Not as we. You believe you do. We know, and yet often\nmake mistakes. We may sacrifice men to save our own\nexistence. We may transmit and originate instructions to\nmen. We may correct and chastise. But we may not become\nas you are. That is what I did. I must repay.\"\n------------------------------------------------------------\n\nSidero considers himself and his kind the moral superior of men. When he\ntook pleasure in inflicting pain in Sev he crossed a line he shouldn't have\ncrossed--and he knew it. He felt he must make recompense, in this case by\nexcusing the dragooned Sev from the looming battle. He was pissed at Sev in\nthe first place for Sev having tricked him and then put him on like a suit\nof armor. Sev was killed in a fall a few minutes later.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2004-12-05T11:48:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AI souls", "in_reply_to": "<000601c4da28$39653ea0$b33dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's an interesting typo, though. Oddly appropriate.\nDon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday, December 4, 2004, at 09:39 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "actions he had taken against Severian. His conscious bothered him. To" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I meant, of course, \"His _conscience_ bothered him.\" Sheesh.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173704120610497310d201@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2004-12-06T10:54:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AI souls", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "H'mmmm ... Interesting. \n\nAnother example of machines MAYBE becoming ensouled \nwould be the Talusses (Tali?) of the Long Sun Whorl.\n\nIt seems clear to me that Wolfe is suggesting that something\nlike a soul happens at a certain level of complexity and \nespecially of _communication_. The word he uses is \"speech,\"\nbut I suspect that the word he is avoiding - and why should \nWolfe not avoid key words and facts every bit as much as his \nown characters? - is \"word,\" or rather \"Word,\" _logos_.\n\nGod speaks World into existence, and all the creatures in\nit; God then ensouls Man by \"breathing\" into his nostrils\n- but the Hebrew word translated as \"breath\" can as easily\nbe translated \"spirit\" or \"wind.\" And we speak with our \nbreath. \n\nSpeech is breath is spirit.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nFreedom has no barcode.\n --J.G. Ballard" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c4dc23$f8242160$513ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2004-12-06T22:14:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AI souls", "in_reply_to": "<1f76173704120610497310d201@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l wrote:\nIt seems clear to me that Wolfe is suggesting that something\nlike a soul happens at a certain level of complexity and\nespecially of _communication_. The word he uses is \"speech,\"\nbut I suspect that the word he is avoiding - and why should\nWolfe not avoid key words and facts every bit as much as his\nown characters? - is \"word,\" or rather \"Word,\" _logos_.\n\nGod speaks World into existence, and all the creatures in\nit; God then ensouls Man by \"breathing\" into his nostrils\n- but the Hebrew word translated as \"breath\" can as easily\nbe translated \"spirit\" or \"wind.\" And we speak with our\nbreath.\n\nSpeech is breath is spirit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just so. And Wolfe goes out of his way to make Apheta and her kind have no\ntongues. In Chapter XIX, aptly named \"Silence\", Apheta says:\n--------------------------------------------\n\"You have listened to my voice for a long\nwhile now, Autarch. Listen to this world of Yesod instead\nand tell me what you hear, other than my words, when I\nspeak to you. Listen! What do you hear?\"\n I did not understand. I said, \"Nothing. But you are a\nhuman woman.\"\n \"You hear nothing because we speak with silence, even\nas you with sound. Whatever noises we find we shape,\ncanceling those which are unneeded, voicing our thoughts\nin the remainder. That is why I led you here, where the\nwaves murmur always; and why we have so many fountains,\nand trees to stir their leaves in the wind from our sea.\"\n--------------------------------------------\n\nThen she shows Sev that she has no tongue. What is Wolfe trying to say? Sev\nthen beds her, and from that bizarre union the New Sun is born, which is\nhimself. I'm so theologically confused!\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<45905.209.167.159.20.1102443476.squirrel@shell.vex.net>", "from": { "name": "zvi at vex.net", "address": "zvi at vex.net" }, "date": "2004-12-07T10:18:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AI souls", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c4dc23$f8242160$513ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy write:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Speech is breath is spirit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just so. And Wolfe goes out of his way to make Apheta and her kind have no\ntongues.\n[...] What is Wolfe trying to say?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's further evidence that Apheta's kind are 'pure'.\n\nIn many cultures, 'tongue' is metonomy for 'language, speech,\ncommunication'; further, it's often used in contexts where the\nlanguage/speech/communication is evil, tainted, 'bad'. 'Forked tongue' is\njust one example; lashon ha-rah (Hebrew) is translated as 'evil speech'\nbut it's literally 'the bad tongue'.\n\nIs it possible that Wolfe is literalizing the metonomy especially with\nregard to the tongue's associations with evil speech? By definition, the\nlanguage of a tongue-less people could not be 'the bad tongue'.\n\nCf.:\nhttp://www.mountzion.org/fgb/Spring95/FgbSP2-95.html\n'The Evil Tongue' which contains some lovely lines:\n\n The apostle James in this Scripture,\n describes the evil of the tongue,\n “The tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity.”\n\n 1. “It is a fire.” It burns with intemperate heat;\n it causeth the heat of contention; it sets others\n in a flame.\n\n 2. “A world of iniquity.” It was at first made to be\n an organ of God’s praise, but it is become an instrument\n of unrighteousness. All the members of the body are sinful,\n as there is bitterness in every branch of wormwood, but\n the tongue is excessively sinful, “full of deadly\n poison” (verse 8).\n\n--Zvi\nzvi at vex.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f761737041207102354b934f4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2004-12-07T10:24:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AI souls", "in_reply_to": "<45905.209.167.159.20.1102443476.squirrel@shell.vex.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What Apheta's speech-through-silence has always reminded me of \nwas the prophet (was it Ezekiel? Can't recall) who listened for God's \nvoice only to find Him speaking in a quiet breeze.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nFreedom has no barcode.\n --J.G. Ballard" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002801c4dc91$d979bfe0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2004-12-07T11:20:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AI souls", "in_reply_to": "<1f761737041207102354b934f4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What Apheta's speech-through-silence has always reminded me of\nwas the prophet (was it Ezekiel? Can't recall) who listened for God's\nvoice only to find Him speaking in a quiet breeze." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was Elijah. It reminds me of the spirit of the dead witch in THE KNIGHT,\nwhose voice could be heard in the falling rain.\n\nI'm not convinced there's anything important thematically about Apheta's\nmethod of speech (surprisingly, since I tend to see purpose in so many\nthings that others don't). It strikes me as a clever possibilitythat has\ncaught Wolfe's fancy...speaking through anti-sound...the louder the noise\nthe more clearly one can be heard, etc.\n\nThis discussion has filled my mind with so many things and changed my view\non some things. I'll try to post something tonight.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13114668501.20041207214243@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanis³aw Bocian", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2004-12-07T12:30:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AI souls", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c4dc23$f8242160$513ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tuesday, December 7, 2004, 7:14:04 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nRCL> Just so. And Wolfe goes out of his way to make Apheta and her kind have no\nRCL> tongues. In Chapter XIX, aptly named \"Silence\", Apheta says:\nRCL> --------------------------------------------\nRCL> \"You have listened to my voice for a long\nRCL> while now, Autarch. Listen to this world of Yesod instead\nRCL> and tell me what you hear, other than my words, when I\nRCL> speak to you. Listen! What do you hear?\"\nRCL> I did not understand. I said, \"Nothing. But you are a\nRCL> human woman.\"\nRCL> \"You hear nothing because we speak with silence, even\nRCL> as you with sound. Whatever noises we find we shape,\nRCL> canceling those which are unneeded, voicing our thoughts\nRCL> in the remainder. That is why I led you here, where the\nRCL> waves murmur always; and why we have so many fountains,\nRCL> and trees to stir their leaves in the wind from our sea.\"\nRCL> --------------------------------------------\n\nCompare with the Hierodules in the Sword of the Lictor:\n\n \"I asked, \"You have left them these machines, then?\" I was acutely\n conscious, as I spoke, of the eviscerated woman mumbling beneath her\n glass somewhere behind me, a thing that once would not have bothered\n the torturer Severian in the least.\n\n Barbatus said, \"No. Those he found, or constructed for himself.\n Famulimus said that he wished to learn, and that we saw to it that he\n did, not that we taught him. We teach no one anything, and only trade\n such devices as are too complex for your people to duplicate.\"\n\n Dr. Talos said, \"These monsters, these horrors, do nothing for us.\n You've seen them you know what they are. ...\n\n ....\n \n \"Now we must go,\" Ossipago told Baldanders, and he handed him the\n Claw. \"Think well on all the things we have not told you, and\n remember what you have not been shown.\"\n\n \"I will,\" Baldanders said, his voice as grim as I was ever to hear\n it.\"\n\nI wonder whether my ideas about Tolkien's Valar would not apply here.\nI think that all supernatural forces in the Lord of the Ring tend to\nact upon the material world in a specific way - they don't cause\nanything themselves, but manipulate natural causes. I don't think here\nabout lesser natural spirits such as ents etc, but about more\npowerfull being.\n\n For example Valar and the wind - the change of direction of wind at\n the battle of Pelennor is entirely natural, but it is no accident\n that it happened then, and not at any other time. The idea is, by the\n way, from Tom Shippey.\n\n Using an idea from modern science, the Valar and similar beings don't\n influence the probability wave, but set a particular result when the\n wave collapses, that is, when it is measured or reacts with some\n object. In other words, Sauron could roll any number he wanted on the\n dice without cheating - he could, to some extent, simply select it.\n\n The idea I want to express is a bit difficult. I want to say that\n such beings can influence events without exerting any kind of force.\n When something can happen, according to chance, one way or another,\n they can try to select an outcome. But this power doesn't allow them\n to cause anything which wouldn't happen by itself - they cannot cause\n anything which wouldn't happen naturally - although, of course, they\n are a great many thing which could happen naturally, but never do,\n since they are so unprobable.\n\n The most interesting thing in such a case would be that the cause of\n such an event would be entirely natural, since it would be only the\n more or less probable outcome of the forces operating independently\n of the Maiar/Valar. At the same time it would be caused by the Valar.\n Therefore, the event would have two independent causes, natural and\n supernatural. So the question whether the wind at Pelennor was\n natural or sent by Valar would have as the answer - both.\n\n I will not say that this is the only power of the Valar over the\n material world, but it is the one most often seen in the LoTR. Here\n belong such words of Gandalf, as \"Chance, as you call it\" etc. It\n explains also the limitations of their power. For example as Gandalf\n states on Caradhras, he cannot go against the nature of the things,\n he must have something to work on.\n\n \"`If Gandalf would go before us with a bright flame, he might melt a\n path for you,' said Legolas. The storm had troubled him little, and\n he alone of the Company remained still light of heart. `If Elves\n could fly over mountains, they might fetch the Sun to save us,'\n answered Gandalf. `But I must have something to work on. I cannot\n burn snow.'\"\n\n The magic of the Elves seems to be mostly similar, if sometimes\n instinctive and not fully conscious.\n\n For the example the incident with the rope in the Two Towers: \"He\nlooked up and gave one last pull to the rope as if in farewell.\nTo the complete surprise of both the hobbits it came loose. Sam fell\nover, and the long grey coils slithered silently down on top of him.\nFrodo laughed. `Who tied the rope? ' he said. .... 'Then I'm\nafraid it must have been the knot,' said Frodo. Sam shook his\nhead and did not answer. He was passing the rope through his fingers\nthoughtfully. `Have it your own way, Mr. Frodo,' he said at last, `but\nI think the rope came off itself — when I called.' He coiled it up and\nstowed it lovingly in his pack.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Stanislaus Bocian\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nStartuj z INTERIA.PL!!! >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1837" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2004-12-08T12:59:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AI souls", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c4dc23$f8242160$513ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another statement of the obvious: the spirit/breath connection is \ncross-cultural, definitely not strictly Hebrew (though it is certainly \nimportant there). It's there, for example, in the greek - although I don't \nthink that the communication aspect was originally tied to spirit in this \nway in the Greek tradition, though it may have been associated later on. If \nI recall correctly Aristotle does sort of place communication in a primitive \n\"evolutionary\" scale of mind, in that supposedly creatures without the \nability to hear lack the ability to learn (and thus cannot proceed past a \ncertain level of consciousness). One assumes he hadn't met many deaf people, \nbut perhaps the point he was making there was metaphorical.\n\nI was always struck by Apheta's peculiar non-speaking-speech, and I \nsuspected that it reflects a general concept in some mystical traditions \nabout the second type of wisdom, apart from that sort of logos that *is* in \na positive sense and that we can speak of. You can vaguely associate it with \nTaoism, Zen buddhism, or even stick within the Hebrew or Greek traditions. \nIn any event I was never really able to tell if this was an essential \nthematic element, or whether Wolfe just thought it was a nifty idea." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"You must not be soft, but cover yourself up; for you must discover an \nintellection abstractional and fraudulent.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems clear to me that Wolfe is suggesting that something\nlike a soul happens at a certain level of complexity and\nespecially of _communication_. The word he uses is \"speech,\"\nbut I suspect that the word he is avoiding - and why should\nWolfe not avoid key words and facts every bit as much as his\nown characters? - is \"word,\" or rather \"Word,\" _logos_.\n\nGod speaks World into existence, and all the creatures in\nit; God then ensouls Man by \"breathing\" into his nostrils\n- but the Hebrew word translated as \"breath\" can as easily\nbe translated \"spirit\" or \"wind.\" And we speak with our\nbreath.\n\nSpeech is breath is spirit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just so. And Wolfe goes out of his way to make Apheta and her kind have no\ntongues. In Chapter XIX, aptly named \"Silence\", Apheta says:\n--------------------------------------------\n\"You have listened to my voice for a long\nwhile now, Autarch. Listen to this world of Yesod instead\nand tell me what you hear, other than my words, when I\nspeak to you. Listen! What do you hear?\"\n I did not understand. I said, \"Nothing. But you are a\nhuman woman.\"\n \"You hear nothing because we speak with silence, even\nas you with sound. Whatever noises we find we shape,\ncanceling those which are unneeded, voicing our thoughts\nin the remainder. That is why I led you here, where the\nwaves murmur always; and why we have so many fountains,\nand trees to stir their leaves in the wind from our sea.\"\n--------------------------------------------\n\nThen she shows Sev that she has no tongue. What is Wolfe trying to say? Sev\nthen beds her, and from that bizarre union the New Sun is born, which is\nhimself. I'm so theologically confused!\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<41B76D69.6060108@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "maru", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2004-12-08T13:09:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AI souls", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Y'know, I don't think that bit with Apheta is an isolated peculiarity- I \nrecall, in one of teh Island stories, Dr. Island spoke to the patients \nin the same manner. Seeing it twice leads me to think this is a mjor \npoint, some sort of meaningful inversion.\n~Maru" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris wrote:\nAnother statement of the obvious: the spirit/breath connection is \ncross-cultural, definitely not strictly Hebrew (though it is certainly \nimportant there). It's there, for example, in the greek - although I \ndon't think that the communication aspect was originally tied to \nspirit in this way in the Greek tradition, though it may have been \nassociated later on. If I recall correctly Aristotle does sort of \nplace communication in a primitive \"evolutionary\" scale of mind, in \nthat supposedly creatures without the ability to hear lack the ability \nto learn (and thus cannot proceed past a certain level of \nconsciousness). One assumes he hadn't met many deaf people, but \nperhaps the point he was making there was metaphorical.\n\nI was always struck by Apheta's peculiar non-speaking-speech, and I \nsuspected that it reflects a general concept in some mystical \ntraditions about the second type of wisdom, apart from that sort of \nlogos that *is* in a positive sense and that we can speak of. You can \nvaguely associate it with Taoism, Zen buddhism, or even stick within \nthe Hebrew or Greek traditions. In any event I was never really able \nto tell if this was an essential thematic element, or whether Wolfe \njust thought it was a nifty idea.\n\n-- \n\"You must not be soft, but cover yourself up; for you must discover an \nintellection abstractional and fraudulent.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It seems clear to me that Wolfe is suggesting that something\nlike a soul happens at a certain level of complexity and\nespecially of _communication_. The word he uses is \"speech,\"\nbut I suspect that the word he is avoiding - and why should\nWolfe not avoid key words and facts every bit as much as his\nown characters? - is \"word,\" or rather \"Word,\" _logos_.\n\nGod speaks World into existence, and all the creatures in\nit; God then ensouls Man by \"breathing\" into his nostrils\n- but the Hebrew word translated as \"breath\" can as easily\nbe translated \"spirit\" or \"wind.\" And we speak with our\nbreath.\n\nSpeech is breath is spirit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just so. And Wolfe goes out of his way to make Apheta and her kind \nhave no\ntongues. In Chapter XIX, aptly named \"Silence\", Apheta says:\n--------------------------------------------\n\"You have listened to my voice for a long\nwhile now, Autarch. Listen to this world of Yesod instead\nand tell me what you hear, other than my words, when I\nspeak to you. Listen! What do you hear?\"\n I did not understand. I said, \"Nothing. But you are a\nhuman woman.\"\n \"You hear nothing because we speak with silence, even\nas you with sound. Whatever noises we find we shape,\ncanceling those which are unneeded, voicing our thoughts\nin the remainder. That is why I led you here, where the\nwaves murmur always; and why we have so many fountains,\nand trees to stir their leaves in the wind from our sea.\"\n--------------------------------------------\n\nThen she shows Sev that she has no tongue. What is Wolfe trying to \nsay? Sev\nthen beds her, and from that bizarre union the New Sun is born, which is\nhimself. I'm so theologically confused!\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }