The Wizard - do not read until Jan 1

First the generalities: I think Wolfe erred in making Able a modern kid from America.

- What did Able say to Lothur to change the "sons of the Dragon" enemies to "Lothurling" allies? Presumably it had to with a revelation o Able's slaying of Grengarm (the "Dragon") and Lothur taking over the role of tutelary deity.

In a message dated 1/3/2005 7:22:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, abollen at internode.on.net writes:

When Able delivers the message to Arnthor, the first part is from the Aelf, with rather naive and general adjurations towards justice and mercy. Then Able, speaking for himself, gives practical examples of better rule - fair taxation and self-determination. Well within the political background knowledge of a modern American kid who listened in class!

This might seem a bit hokey, but personally I didn't mind it. I was hoping for more flashes of the story of the "real" Able, in our world.

Questions Wizard left me with:

- Who rules after Arnthor? My guess: Beel (or perhaps Idnn). There is discussion towards the end of the book about why Gaynor, Morcaine and Marder are all unsuitable. Beel & Idnn are close to the line of succession and it would be a nice happy ending for Beel, to finally get what he has wanted for so long.

- What did Able say to Lothur to change the "sons of the Dragon" enemies to "Lothurling" allies? Presumably it had to do with a revelation of Able's slaying of Grengarm (the "Dragon") and Lothur taking over the role of tutelary deity.

- What did Kulili show to Able which he will only talk about with one "greater than the Valfather"?

- Like Able, I can't think of any reason why Berthold appeared as Ben when Able wore the magic helm at the end of the story. The Valfather as bright shadow seems more straightforward - there is one True God, and the powers between us and Him protect us from the full glare of His love etc etc. When Able breaks his oath and chooses Disiri over the Valfather, he is acting in accordance with a higher will (as the Valfather recognizes).

- The lowest God. Clearly he is the source of the theological inversion poisoning the worlds, and presumably the "great secret" of the heresies is the Highest = Lowest lie he tells Able, and the claim that God is Janus-faced. But is he your normal fallen angel, or another kind of being; and why does he have wounds on his back? Plucked wings?

- We get creation stories down to Aelfrice, for worlds and inhabitants, but not for Muspel and Niflheim, as I recall. Are we supposed to make up our own? Perhaps the Dragons are discarded parts of Kulili, grown monstrous.

How does Parka fit into the Norse scheme? Parcae is the Roman name fot the Fates; is Wolfe just shoehorning her in as an amalgam of the three? Does she share characteristics with anyone else (i.e., the Virgin Mary) that I didn't pick up on?

First the generalities: I think Wolfe erred in making Able a modern kid from America.

How does Parka fit into the Norse scheme?

How many times, and in which worlds, does Able die? It's already been said that Able dies fighting Grengarm, and that the Valkyrie coming to get him is proof. In what sense does he die, though, and what affect does this have on him?

disembodied, and he's not invincible. Morcaine can't control him. What's going on with that ambulance?

Speaking of Morcaine, why isn't there any explanation for why she was naked in a cave in the mountains?

Why does Able tell Org to eat any man he doesn't know?

--- James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net> wrote: How many times, and in which worlds, does Able die?

It's already been said that Able dies fighting Grengarm, and that the Valkyrie coming to get him is proof. In what sense does he die, though, and what affect does this have on him? He's not disembodied, and he's not invincible. Morcaine can't control him. What's going on with that ambulance? Parka's roll as norn (which were associated with valkyries) suggests Able probably died in Aelfrice prior his encounter in her cave. This also fits with the references to him as Disiri's "playmate" since it evokes Athena and her killed playmate Pallas. He definitely dies in Mythgarthr during his battle with Grengarm, since a valkyrie comes and takes him. In each case he returns from "heaven" to battle for those in the world he has left. The ambulance? That's Arthur Ormsby being taken to the hospital of course! They found him in a coma possibly near death from hypothermia in that valley where the Moss Aelf took him. Presumably, when he reaches the Most High God, he will awake.

Speaking of Morcaine, why isn't there any explanation for why she was naked in a cave in the mountains?

She was being offered as a sacrifice to Grengarm by the Aelf. How did she fall into their hands? She no doubt moves about a lot in Aelfrice.

Why does Able tell Org to eat any man he doesn't know?

Org has to eat. Those who he has met through Able are under Able's protection. I think it was neat the way Wolfe incorporated the Pendragon (son of the dragon) motif from the Arthur legend and made Arnthor truely the "son of the dragon". Arnthor is the King Arthur of Wolfe's imagined history...Arthur was not universally heroic in the Welsh stories, and Mordred was not universally villainous. He was surely not actually the beatific King of the Romances. Able is the King Arthur of the Romances and assends to skies where Mythgarthr's mythology lives. This is not the ending I expected, btw. I figured Able would become Merlin. He didn't. ~ Crush _______________________________________________

--- David Lebling <dlebling at hyraxes.com> wrote: Who attacked King Gilling? Was it the same person (or being) both times? As with many Wolfe mysteries, I suppose he put all the information there and if one is appropriately Sherlockian one can figure out who it was, but I am unsure of the answer. My guesses are (1) Baki or Uri (I have trouble telling them apart) and (2) Svon, not necessarily in that order. The Fire Aelf would do it to help move the expedition along and get Able back to what they consider his main mission, fighting Kulili. Svon would do it to save Idnn from a fate worse than death. (Who else thought the witch's graphic description of how a human woman makes love to a giant a bit out of place in an ostensibly YA novel?) -- Dave, aka Vizcacha _______________________________________________

Actually, Able doesn't ascend . . . at least not at the end of the novel. Following his disobedience of the Valfather, Able (with Disiri) descends to Aelfrice, which is where Michael comes to get him for some mission we do not know. I'm very curious about this mission and where it takes place. I half-suspect we're supposed to think it takes place in America.

--- James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net> wrote: Actually, Able doesn't ascend . . . at least not at the end of the novel. Following his disobedience of the Valfather, Able (with Disiri) descends to Aelfrice, which is where Michael comes to get him for some mission we do not know. I'm very curious about this mission and where it takes place. I half-suspect we're supposed to think it takes place in America.

Since Michael has been sent from Kleos, that is surely to where they are going. The "great knight", Sir Able of the High Heart, did not yet exist when Able first met Michael. First Able had to win his sword, spend 20 years in Skai, and free Mythgarthr and Aelfrice from the tyranny of their "lower dragons'. ~ Crush _______________________________________________

Gilling was attacked both times by Sir Garvaon.

Lastly, I thought I remembered Able (again, in The Knight) describing Toug on the walls of the giants' castle, much as Able himself climbed from window to window. Of course, at that point I was envisioning a daring rescue, but even so I don't remember Toug climbing the walls of Utgard (! I finally remembered the name) at any point during The Wizard.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:38:51 -0800, Don Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net> wrote: Hey everyone, I'm moving to a new apt. so I'm posting early. I'll probably check my mail at the library but I don't know how much I'll be posting for a few weeks. There's plenty to be touched on in these two books but I'm going to give a few general observations and then hit on a very specific point. First the generalities: I think Wolfe erred in making Able a modern kid from America. It's the single thing that keeps this book from being a great work. It constantly pulled me out of the book and it says a lot for the power of the story itself that I invested major effort in forgetting Able's origins whenever possible. Still IMO it's a major flaw. Maybe this is my problem, but I doubt I'm alone in this. Also the first part of the Wizard with Toug and Mani in Utgard threatened to bog down the whole book. The story hits its stride when Able appears again though, and it achieves some very high points. I love Wolfe's characterization of Skai and its inhabitants. I wasn't so keen on his hierarchy of beings. Too reductionist for me, but GW let's me get around it by having fallible narrators. I would like to ask an open question. Is it useful to look at this work as a source of answers for themes in Wolfe's other works, especially NS, LS, and SS? I personally think it is but I don't want to bother going down that path if we have to argue whether it is indeed useful first. Did anyone else see Severian in the Black Caan? Because this is technically a YA novel, it seems to me that Wolfe was a little more straightforward in his themes and maybe it will shed some light on other books that have been murkier. There are still space creatures, giants, clones, artificial intelligences, and composite beings. Ok, the specific thing I want to post on is Able's real name, Arthur Ormsby. Anyone who has read GW knows that he doesn't hide a name for two books and reveal it in the utter last moment and not have it mean something. A big something I think. Someone (I think it was Marc) said that they wouldn't be surprised if Able and Arnthor turned out to be the same person in the end. I Think this is essentially correct. In my last post (and thank you for the kind words Charles) I said that I felt that Silkhorn was the ideal Silk of Horn's book of Silk, a Silk that the man of that name fell short of. Able says that he was raised up by the Aelf to be a messenger to Arnthor and that in order to deliver this message he had to be a worthy messenger. Hence his trials. This is wrong. Able isn't the messenger, he's the message. Able is the Aelf's rebuke to Arnthor, rubbing his face into how far short he has fallen. He carries Eterne (excalibur) a sword Arnthor can't even draw. His coat of arms bears a dragon. Shame is what causes Arnthor to imprison Able. I think that Wolfe is riffing off the idea of many versions of Arthur in history and legend. This recalls to me the scene in "The Last Temptation of Christ" (I haven't read the book) where the Jesus who saved himself from the cross confronts Paul and calls him a fraud. And Paul says he doesn't care who Jesus is, the people need someone and he would happily make up the whole story if necessary. Able is sort of that Pauline Jesus (Silkhorn too, for that matter) Anyhow, on to the name. Arthur is evident. Orm means "elm" so essentially Ormsby means "of the elm". This brings up several interesting associations. The first is that the elm (or Ailm) is an Aleph symbol (at least according to Graves, and even though Wolfe has said he was a crackpot, which is true, I'm certain he finds him thematically useful). Another is that the elm is a symbol of death. Recall that Able's new puppy is a white dog with red ears, a dog of the Goddess in her death aspect and one of the hounds of Annwyn as well (I think, but clearly a death symbol- by the way Farvan, as far as I can find, is another word for Pharaoh). Most interesting to me, one of the variants of the Death of Arthur has him being killed by a youth (who seems to be from faerie) on a horse wielding a spear made of the elm. I'm not sure why GW chose these associations, but I'm pretty sure they're not random. Regards Don _______________________________________________

Also, if you look back to The Knight, you will find that Michael goes to Aelfrice in quest of "that far-famed knight, Sir Able of the High Heart." At the end of The Wizard, when Sir Able reports that Michael has come for him, that is the end of the journey that Michael interrupted briefly beside the pool in Mythgarthr. It is clear from the beginning of The Wizard Knight that the book (letter to Ben) is being written from Aelfrice.

--- James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net> wrote:

Also, if you look back to The Knight, you will find that Michael goes to Aelfrice in quest of "that far-famed knight, Sir Able of the High Heart." At the end of The Wizard, when Sir Able reports that Michael has come for him, that is the end of the journey that Michael interrupted briefly beside the pool in Mythgarthr. It is clear from the beginning of The Wizard Knight that the book (letter to Ben) is being written from Aelfrice.

Umm...yes, I agree. Michael goes to Aelfrice to find Able of the High Heart and that is where he finds him...at the end of the story. He goes in search of him there even though He is talking to Able at the pool...ergo, the Able that Michael is seeking does not exist until the end of the novel. I think we agree on this, no? It seemed obvious to me that Able and Disiri were on their way to Kleo when Michael arrives to fetch them. But if you can point out a more likely location, I'd be interested to hear of it. ~ Crush _______________________________________________

The ambulance? That's Arthur Ormsby being taken to the hospital of course! They found him in a coma possibly near death from hypothermia in that valley where the Moss Aelf took him. Presumably, when he reaches the Most High God, he will awake.

it's probably significant that Able never looks at himself while wearing the helmet.

--- Nathan Spears <spearofsolomon at yahoo.com> wrote: James Wynn said:

The ambulance? That's Arthur Ormsby being taken to the hospital of course! They found him in a coma possibly near death from hypothermia in that valley where the Moss Aelf took him. Presumably, when he reaches the Most High God, he will awake.

I've been mulling on this, and I think you're saying that he's going to wake up in America to discover that he's still a young boy, similar to King Peter and the rest in Narnia reverting to children after their adventures. Honestly, if this is what Wolfe intends then I feel cheated. Is this guesswork on your part or are there more clues pointing that direction in the text? It feels a little small somehow. Then again, it does point to a Christian interpretation of the text in small ways: "a great lord requires service from a knight," or however that went.

it's probably significant that Able never looks at himself while wearing the helmet.

I thought it was very significant that he did look at himself while wearing the helmet. He looked at his reflection in the water (seeing Disiri as a human woman next to him) just before he cast the helmet far out into it. He sees himself as a knight and not a small boy, which was what he expected to see. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________

The ambulance? That's Arthur Ormsby being taken to the hospital of course! They found him in a coma possibly near death from hypothermia in that valley where the Moss Aelf took him. Presumably, when he reaches the Most High God, he will awake.

I've been mulling on this, and I think you're saying that he's going to wake up in America to discover that he's still a young boy, similar to King Peter and the rest in Narnia reverting to children after their adventures.

this is what Wolfe intends then I feel cheated. Is this guesswork on your part or are there more clues pointing that direction in the text? It feels a little small somehow.

From: "Russell Wodell" <wrustle at telus.net> What would be Sir Garvaon's motive for killing Gilling? (Rhyme unintentional) And why would Wolfe conceal this for so long?>

If I'm right, this further underlines the increasing strain of misogyny in late Wolfe..>

--- Russell Wodell <wrustle at telus.net> wrote: What would be Sir Garvaon's motive for killing Gilling? (Rhyme unintentional) And why would Wolfe conceal this for so long? For this and other reasons, I am fairly certain that Iddn is the murderer. She agreed to marry Gilling to achieve power, which she maintains with her army of giantesses, but killed him because sexual congress would mean her death either in coitus or in giving birth to a giant, as Wolfe makes gruesomely explicit. If I'm right, this further underlines the increasing strain of misogyny in late Wolfe... Russell _______________________________________________

--- Russell Wodell <wrustle at telus.net> wrote: What would be Sir Garvaon's motive for killing Gilling? (Rhyme unintentional) And why would Wolfe conceal this for so long? For this and other reasons, I am fairly certain that Iddn is the murderer. She agreed to marry Gilling to achieve power, which she maintains with her army of giantesses, but killed him because sexual congress would mean her death either in coitus or in giving birth to a giant, as Wolfe makes gruesomely explicit. If I'm right, this further underlines the increasing strain of misogyny in late Wolfe... Russell _______________________________________________

--- harlekin at earthlink.net wrote: This is a paradox. Garvaon sacrifices his knightly honor to benefit Idnn, something not even Able is willing to do. Don His murder of Gilling, in knightly terms, is a deeply selfish and dishonorable act -- thus it's interesting that he is "raised" to Skai. But then again, Abel himself goes against the knightly code many times, and is rewarded for it. Paul --- Russell Wodell <wrustle at telus.net> wrote:

What would be Sir Garvaon's motive for killing Gilling? (Rhyme unintentional) And why would Wolfe conceal this for so long? For this and other reasons, I am fairly certain that Iddn is the murderer. She agreed to marry Gilling to achieve power, which she maintains with her army of giantesses, but killed him because sexual congress would mean her death either in coitus or in giving birth to a giant, as Wolfe makes gruesomely explicit. If I'm right, this further underlines the increasing strain of misogyny in late Wolfe... Russell _______________________________________________