{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4282", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4282, "subject": "The Wizard - do not read until Jan 1", "messages": 27, "voices": 11, "first": "2004-12-28T16:39:52+00:00", "last": "2005-01-04T11:49:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<6477F80E-593A-11D9-A0C4-0003939CE29C@earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2004-12-28T16:39:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - do not read until Jan 1", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey everyone,\n\tI'm moving to a new apt. so I'm posting early. I'll probably check my \nmail at the library but I don't know how much I'll be posting for a few \nweeks. There's plenty to be touched on in these two books but I'm \ngoing to give a few general observations and then hit on a very \nspecific point. First the generalities: I think Wolfe erred in making \nAble a modern kid from America. It's the single thing that keeps this \nbook from being a great work. It constantly pulled me out of the book \nand it says a lot for the power of the story itself that I invested \nmajor effort in forgetting Able's origins whenever possible. Still IMO \nit's a major flaw. Maybe this is my problem, but I doubt I'm alone in \nthis. Also the first part of the Wizard with Toug and Mani in Utgard \nthreatened to bog down the whole book. The story hits its stride when \nAble appears again though, and it achieves some very high points. I \nlove Wolfe's characterization of Skai and its inhabitants. I wasn't so \nkeen on his hierarchy of beings. Too reductionist for me, but GW let's \nme get around it by having fallible narrators. I would like to ask an \nopen question. Is it useful to look at this work as a source of \nanswers for themes in Wolfe's other works, especially NS, LS, and SS? \nI personally think it is but I don't want to bother going down that \npath if we have to argue whether it is indeed useful first. Did anyone \nelse see Severian in the Black Caan? Because this is technically a YA \nnovel, it seems to me that Wolfe was a little more straightforward in \nhis themes and maybe it will shed some light on other books that have \nbeen murkier. There are still space creatures, giants, clones, \nartificial intelligences, and composite beings.\n\nOk, the specific thing I want to post on is Able's real name, Arthur \nOrmsby. Anyone who has read GW knows that he doesn't hide a name for \ntwo books and reveal it in the utter last moment and not have it mean \nsomething. A big something I think. Someone (I think it was Marc) \nsaid that they wouldn't be surprised if Able and Arnthor turned out to \nbe the same person in the end. I Think this is essentially correct. \nIn my last post (and thank you for the kind words Charles) I said that \nI felt that Silkhorn was the ideal Silk of Horn's book of Silk, a Silk \nthat the man of that name fell short of. Able says that he was raised \nup by the Aelf to be a messenger to Arnthor and that in order to \ndeliver this message he had to be a worthy messenger. Hence his \ntrials. This is wrong. Able isn't the messenger, he's the message. \nAble is the Aelf's rebuke to Arnthor, rubbing his face into how far \nshort he has fallen. He carries Eterne (excalibur) a sword Arnthor \ncan't even draw. His coat of arms bears a dragon. Shame is what \ncauses Arnthor to imprison Able. I think that Wolfe is riffing off the \nidea of many versions of Arthur in history and legend. This recalls to \nme the scene in \"The Last Temptation of Christ\" (I haven't read the \nbook) where the Jesus who saved himself from the cross confronts Paul \nand calls him a fraud. And Paul says he doesn't care who Jesus is, the \npeople need someone and he would happily make up the whole story if \nnecessary. Able is sort of that Pauline Jesus (Silkhorn too, for that \nmatter) Anyhow, on to the name. Arthur is evident. Orm means \"elm\" so \nessentially Ormsby means \"of the elm\". This brings up several \ninteresting associations. The first is that the elm (or Ailm) is an \nAleph symbol (at least according to Graves, and even though Wolfe has \nsaid he was a crackpot, which is true, I'm certain he finds him \nthematically useful). Another is that the elm is a symbol of death. \nRecall that Able's new puppy is a white dog with red ears, a dog of the \nGoddess in her death aspect and one of the hounds of Annwyn as well (I \nthink, but clearly a death symbol- by the way Farvan, as far as I can \nfind, is another word for Pharaoh). Most interesting to me, one of the \nvariants of the Death of Arthur has him being killed by a youth (who \nseems to be from faerie) on a horse wielding a spear made of the elm. \nI'm not sure why GW chose these associations, but I'm pretty sure \nthey're not random.\n\nRegards\nDon\n\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0d5501c4f18e$e78f1320$fc406596@crunchynut>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2005-01-03T04:22:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - do not read until Jan 1", "in_reply_to": "<6477F80E-593A-11D9-A0C4-0003939CE29C@earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First the generalities: I think Wolfe erred in making Able a modern kid \nfrom America." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Arnthor is surely shamed by Able's knighty prowess (and presumably isn't \ntotally thrilled that Able killed his brother). But I believe that Able's \nrole as far as the Aelf were concerned was certainly to be a messenger, and \nfor this role Able as modern American kid isn't completely arbitrary. The \nAelf wished to deliver a message to the rulers of their \"Gods\" saying, \"Rule \nbetter!\" An American in the court of King Arnthor doesn't seem inappropriate \nfor this, whereas a \"local\" kid would probably find criticizing a king \ninconceivable, not least because he would have no other model.\n\nWhen Able delivers the message to Arnthor, the first part is from the Aelf, \nwith rather naive and general adjurations towards justice and mercy. Then \nAble, speaking for himself, gives practical examples of better rule - fair \ntaxation and self-determination. Well within the political background \nknowledge of a modern American kid who listened in class!\n\nThis might seem a bit hokey, but personally I didn't mind it. I was hoping \nformore flashes of the story of the \"real\" Able, in our world.\n\nQuestions Wizard left me with:\n\n- Who rules after Arnthor? My guess: Beel (or perhaps Idnn). There is \ndiscussion towards the end of the book about why Gaynor, Morcaine and Marder \nare all unsuitable. Beel & Idnn are close to the line of succession and it \nwould be a nice happy ending for Beel, to finally get what he has wanted for \nso long.\n\n- What did Able say to Lothur to change the \"sons of the Dragon\" enemies to \n\"Lothurling\" allies? Presumably it had to with a revelation o Able's slaying \nof Grengarm (the \"Dragon\") and Lothur taking over the role of tutelary \ndeity.\n\n- What did Kulili show to Able which he will only talk about with one \n\"greater than the Valfather\"?\n\n- Like Able, I can't think of any reason why Berthold appeared as Ben when \nAble wore the magic helm at the end of the story. The Valfather as bright \nshadow seems more straightforward - there is one True God, and the powers \nbetween us and Him protect us from the full glare of His love etc etc. When \nAble breaks his oath and chooses Disiri over the Valfather, he is acting in \naccordance with a higher will (as the Valfather recognizes).\n\n- The lowest God. Clearly he is the source of the theological inversion \npoisoning the worlds, and presumably the \"great secret\" of the heresies is \nthe Highest = Lowest lie he tells Able, and the claim that God is \nJanus-faced. But is he your normal fallen angel, or another kind of being; \nand why does he have wounds on his back? Plucked wings?\n\n- We get creation stories down to Aelfrice, for worlds and inhabitants, but \nnot for Muspel and Niflheim, as I recall. Are we supposed to make up our \nown? Perhaps the Dragons are discarded parts of Kulili, grown monstrous." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050103152229.5598.qmail@web50309.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T07:22:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<0d5501c4f18e$e78f1320$fc406596@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Out of several thoughts on the Wizard, I tried to cull those which I think this\ngroup is likely to find most interesting. The first is a question that I will\nattempt an answer to.\n\nArnthor and Garsecg are brothers. Garsecg is the elder brother, and thus the\nrightful king of Mythgarthr, but he's (supposedly) not interested in being king. \nHe'd rather be a dragon and conquer the Aelf. What's very confusing, however, is\nthat Able says (in the intro pages) he suspects that Garsecg/Setr wanted to conquer\nMythgarthr. Why didn't he assume his kingship instead of trying to conquer from\nMuspel? Then he could also have ruled the Aelf as their rightful god (which is what\nthey wanted of Arnthor), instead of forcing them to worship him in an unholy\nusurping of the natural order.\n\nI think the answer to this question is that Garsecg gives rein to his dragon nature,\nso that no matter how noble he is he still stands below the Aelf. Thus they cannot\nworship him truthfully. Arnthor has denied his dragon nature (even when he needed\nit most) and embraced his humanity, so that even though he is a petty king (at least\nwith regard to Able and his queen) and uninterested in (or bitter toward) the Aelf\nhe is still the only one who can be an image of The Valfather for them. I don't\nknow if this is merely an exploration of the nature of this world by Wolfe, or if it\nhas more significant implications.\n\n* * *\n\nSomeone has mentioned on this list before that they believed that contact with the\nsupernatural is most often damning in Wolfe's canon. I don't know if The Wizard\nKnight can be considered in the same context, because the supernatural seems a very\ndifferent concept here. I feel that Wolfe created a world in which the theology\ndiffers from ours (by which I mean the Catholic/Christian theology that Wolfe\nprofesses), but the morality (by which I mean 'being good,' loosely) remains fairly\nconstant. Able strives (esp. in the first book) to perfect each impulse and feeling\n(thus the 'High Heart'), bringing them into line with (at first) how he believes Sir\nRavd would have behaved. Later he comes into his own understanding of what it means\nto attempt to behave lovingly or charitably toward everyone, and that it is\nimportant, perhaps most important, to behave that way when you don't wish to. \nAble's contact with the supernatural (if we consider his movement between worlds to\nbe supernatural, which I concede might not be true) is not damning or damaging to\nAble in the lupine tradition. Able's contact with Disiri does threaten to derail\nhim at some points, such as when he is ready to kill Toug at her command early on,\nbut later Able is more rooted and pulls Disiri up to him instead of being dragged\ndown to her. I mean 'up' and 'down' in both a moral and geographic sense, and I\nthink those meanings are intertwined. When Able is taken to Skai it is both a\nrecognition and a reinforcement of his knighthood.\n\nIn the second book, Able has achieved his knighthood to a large degree, especially\nin comparison to the other people around him, and becomes the model and inspiration\nfor those he comes into contact with, as those in Skai were his models. This is\nalso a Christian idea: trying to be like the Most High God, we often imitate those\nwho are closer to Him than we are. This is why I think the Valfather is a bright\nshadow: he is an image of an image of the Most High God.\n\nThat's all I have to say; I do have some questions, but I'll add them to the ones\nalready posed.\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050103154628.14924.qmail@web50309.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T07:47:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions", "in_reply_to": "<0d5501c4f18e$e78f1320$fc406596@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- What did Able say to Lothur to change the \"sons of the Dragon\" enemies to \n\"Lothurling\" allies? Presumably it had to with a revelation o Able's slaying \nof Grengarm (the \"Dragon\") and Lothur taking over the role of tutelary \ndeity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to know this as well, but I also feel that Smiler was a little too deux ex\nmachina. Is there something about that character that I don't know? Why is it\nsignificant that he is The Dragon Prince, and that The Dragon is Grengarm?\n\nHow does Parka fit into the Norse scheme? Parcae is the Roman name fot the Fates;\nis Wolfe just shoehorning her in as an amalgam of the three? Does she share\ncharacteristics with anyone else (i.e., the Virgin Mary) that I didn't pick up on?\n\nHow many times, and in which worlds, does Able die? It's already been said that\nAble dies fighting Grengarm, and that the Valkyrie coming to get him is proof. In\nwhat sense does he die, though, and what affect does this have on him? He's not\ndisembodied, and he's not invincible. Morcaine can't control him. What's going on\nwith that ambulance?\n\nSpeaking of Morcaine, why isn't there any explanation for why she was naked in a\ncave in the mountains?\n\nWhy does Able tell Org to eat any man he doesn't know?\n\nAnd, of course, I'd like to know what the last three or so paragraphs are all about.\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1eb.31824987.2f0ac49d@aol.com>", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T07:54:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - do not read until Jan 1", "in_reply_to": "<0d5501c4f18e$e78f1320$fc406596@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In a message dated 1/3/2005 7:22:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, \nabollen at internode.on.net writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Able delivers the message to Arnthor, the first part is from the Aelf, \nwith rather naive and general adjurations towards justice and mercy. Then \nAble, speaking for himself, gives practical examples of better rule - fair \ntaxation and self-determination. Well within the political background \nknowledge of a modern American kid who listened in class!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very nice point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This might seem a bit hokey, but personally I didn't mind it. I was hoping \nfor more flashes of the story of the \"real\" Able, in our world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Questions Wizard left me with:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Who rules after Arnthor? My guess: Beel (or perhaps Idnn). There is \ndiscussion towards the end of the book about why Gaynor, Morcaine and \nMarder \nare all unsuitable. Beel & Idnn are close to the line of succession and it \nwould be a nice happy ending for Beel, to finally get what he has wanted \nfor \nso long." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Beel is only a baron, not even a duke. Wouldn't that make it hard for him to\nclaim the throne?\n\nHow about Smiler? It seems that if he married Gaynor (or Morcaine), then he \nwould have a good claim to the throne, and his dragon soldiers would make it\ndifficult for any of the dukes to challenge him. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- What did Able say to Lothur to change the \"sons of the Dragon\" enemies to \n\"Lothurling\" allies? Presumably it had to do with a revelation of Able's \nslaying \nof Grengarm (the \"Dragon\") and Lothur taking over the role of tutelary \ndeity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought he rode down on Cloud, kidnapped Smiler, and threatened to kill \nhim if he didn't cooperate. There's a throwaway remark (I'd find it but I \ndon't \nhave my copy at hand) later that made me assume this was the case. Able\nmight also have mentioned that the throne would be vacant soon, with no \nreasonable claimants in sight, and that it might easily be gained by an\nappropriate marriage. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- What did Kulili show to Able which he will only talk about with one \n\"greater than the Valfather\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Like Able, I can't think of any reason why Berthold appeared as Ben when \nAble wore the magic helm at the end of the story. The Valfather as bright \nshadow seems more straightforward - there is one True God, and the powers \nbetween us and Him protect us from the full glare of His love etc etc. When \nAble breaks his oath and chooses Disiri over the Valfather, he is acting in \naccordance with a higher will (as the Valfather recognizes)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- The lowest God. Clearly he is the source of the theological inversion \npoisoning the worlds, and presumably the \"great secret\" of the heresies is \nthe Highest = Lowest lie he tells Able, and the claim that God is \nJanus-faced. But is he your normal fallen angel, or another kind of being; \nand why does he have wounds on his back? Plucked wings?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- We get creation stories down to Aelfrice, for worlds and inhabitants, but \nnot for Muspel and Niflheim, as I recall. Are we supposed to make up our \nown? Perhaps the Dragons are discarded parts of Kulili, grown monstrous." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good questions. I'll add one of my own. Able's mother and brother both show \nup in Mythgarthr, but how about his father? Is there any mention of him? \nHas \nhe somehow been incorporated into the Valfather?\n\n- Stone Ox (Peter)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004d01c4f1b1$25b06880$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T08:27:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions", "in_reply_to": "<20050103154628.14924.qmail@web50309.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How does Parka fit into the Norse scheme? Parcae is the Roman name fot\nthe Fates;\nis Wolfe just shoehorning her in as an amalgam of the three? Does she\nshare\ncharacteristics with anyone else (i.e., the Virgin Mary) that I didn't\npick up on?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe Parka is referred to in the second book as coming from a higher\nplane than Skai. The only other being we meet from a higher plane is\nMichael, who is from the Christian (i.e., Greco-Roman influenced) tradition.\nSo Parcae as a Roman Fate isn't too outlandish.\n\n-- Dave, aka Vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002101c4f1b4$a1d95a40$63fc06cf@rw9s6no3t0dhzd>", "from": { "name": "Russell Wodell", "address": "wrustle at telus.net" }, "date": "2005-01-03T08:52:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - do not read until Jan 1", "in_reply_to": "<0d5501c4f18e$e78f1320$fc406596@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First the generalities: I think Wolfe erred in making Able a modern kid \nfrom America." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, no. I agree that the tonal effect is (intentionally) jarring. But you \nhave only to turn to Mark Twain's \"A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's \nCourt\" to see what Wolfe is up to in this regard....\n\nRussell " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-03T09:00:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions", "in_reply_to": "<004d01c4f1b1$25b06880$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Lebling writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How does Parka fit into the Norse scheme?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Norse tradition also has the three Norns, called Urd, Skuld, and \nVerdandi, which are more-or-less congruent with the Fates in the \nGreaco-Roman branch of Yggdrasil. \n\nI suggest that Wolfe avoided calling the old woman Urd (Urth) for obvious \nreasons and picked the Roman name instead. \n\n\n hartshorn (glad, very glad, to be back on-list) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<003c01c4f1ba$ab737c60$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-03T09:35:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions", "in_reply_to": "<20050103154628.14924.qmail@web50309.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How many times, and in which worlds, does Able die? It's already been said\nthat\nAble dies fighting Grengarm, and that the Valkyrie coming to get him is\nproof. In\nwhat sense does he die, though, and what affect does this have on him?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's not" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "disembodied, and he's not invincible. Morcaine can't control him. What's\ngoing on\nwith that ambulance?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Parka's roll as norn (which were associated with valkyries) suggests Able\nprobably died in Aelfrice prior his encounter in her cave. This also fits\nwith the references to him as Disiri's \"playmate\" since it evokes Athena and\nher killed playmate Pallas.\n\nHe definitely dies in Mythgarthr during his battle with Grengarm, since a\nvalkyrie comes and takes him.\n\nIn each case he returns from \"heaven\" to battle for those in the world he\nhas left.\n\nThe ambulance? That's Arthur Ormsby being taken to the hospital of course!\nThey found him in a coma possibly near death from hypothermia in that valley\nwhere the Moss Aelf took him. Presumably, when he reaches the Most High God,\nhe will awake." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speaking of Morcaine, why isn't there any explanation for why she was naked\nin a\ncave in the mountains?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She was being offered as a sacrifice to Grengarm by the Aelf. How did she\nfall into their hands? She no doubt moves about a lot in Aelfrice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why does Able tell Org to eat any man he doesn't know?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Org has to eat. Those who he has met through Able are under Able's\nprotection.\n\nI think it was neat the way Wolfe incorporated the Pendragon (son of the\ndragon) motif from the Arthur legend and made Arnthor *truely* the \"son of\nthe dragon\". Arnthor is the King Arthur of Wolfe's imagined history...Arthur\nwas not universally heroic in the Welsh stories, and Mordred was not\nuniversally villainous. He was surely not actually the beatific King of the\nRomances. Able is the King Arthur of the Romances and assends to skies where\nMythgarthr's mythology lives. This is not the ending I expected, btw. I\nfigured Able would become Merlin. He didn't.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050103174712.70531.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T09:47:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions", "in_reply_to": "<003c01c4f1ba$ab737c60$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, Able doesn't ascend . . . at least not at\nthe end of the novel. Following his disobedience of\nthe Valfather, Able (with Disiri) descends to\nAelfrice, which is where Michael comes to get him for\nsome mission we do not know. I'm very curious about\nthis mission and where it takes place. I half-suspect\nwe're supposed to think it takes place in America.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:\nHow many times, and in which worlds, does Able die?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " It's already been said\nthat\nAble dies fighting Grengarm, and that the Valkyrie\ncoming to get him is\nproof. In\nwhat sense does he die, though, and what affect\ndoes this have on him?\nHe's not\ndisembodied, and he's not invincible. Morcaine\ncan't control him. What's\ngoing on\nwith that ambulance?\n\nParka's roll as norn (which were associated with\nvalkyries) suggests Able\nprobably died in Aelfrice prior his encounter in her\ncave. This also fits\nwith the references to him as Disiri's \"playmate\"\nsince it evokes Athena and\nher killed playmate Pallas.\n\nHe definitely dies in Mythgarthr during his battle\nwith Grengarm, since a\nvalkyrie comes and takes him.\n\nIn each case he returns from \"heaven\" to battle for\nthose in the world he\nhas left.\n\nThe ambulance? That's Arthur Ormsby being taken to\nthe hospital of course!\nThey found him in a coma possibly near death from\nhypothermia in that valley\nwhere the Moss Aelf took him. Presumably, when he\nreaches the Most High God,\nhe will awake." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Speaking of Morcaine, why isn't there any\nexplanation for why she was naked\nin a\ncave in the mountains?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She was being offered as a sacrifice to Grengarm by\nthe Aelf. How did she\nfall into their hands? She no doubt moves about a\nlot in Aelfrice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why does Able tell Org to eat any man he doesn't\nknow?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Org has to eat. Those who he has met through Able\nare under Able's\nprotection.\n\nI think it was neat the way Wolfe incorporated the\nPendragon (son of the\ndragon) motif from the Arthur legend and made\nArnthor *truely* the \"son of\nthe dragon\". Arnthor is the King Arthur of Wolfe's\nimagined history...Arthur\nwas not universally heroic in the Welsh stories, and\nMordred was not\nuniversally villainous. He was surely not actually\nthe beatific King of the\nRomances. Able is the King Arthur of the Romances\nand assends to skies where\nMythgarthr's mythology lives. This is not the ending\nI expected, btw. I\nfigured Able would become Merlin. He didn't.\n\n~ Crush\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<006301c4f1bf$40e0fa30$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T10:08:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions", "in_reply_to": "<20050103174712.70531.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who attacked King Gilling? Was it the same person (or being) both times?\n\nAs with many Wolfe mysteries, I suppose he put all the information there and\nif one is appropriately Sherlockian one can figure out who it was, but I am\nunsure of the answer.\n\nMy guesses are (1) Baki or Uri (I have trouble telling them apart) and (2)\nSvon, not necessarily in that order. The Fire Aelf would do it to help move\nthe expedition along and get Able back to what they consider his main\nmission, fighting Kulili. Svon would do it to save Idnn from a fate worse\nthan death. (Who else thought the witch's graphic description of how a human\nwoman makes love to a giant a bit out of place in an ostensibly YA novel?)\n\n-- Dave, aka Vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050103181801.56054.qmail@web20022.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T10:18:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<006301c4f1bf$40e0fa30$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gilling was attacked both times by Sir Garvaon.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- David Lebling wrote:\nWho attacked King Gilling? Was it the same person\n(or being) both times?\n\nAs with many Wolfe mysteries, I suppose he put all\nthe information there and\nif one is appropriately Sherlockian one can figure\nout who it was, but I am\nunsure of the answer.\n\nMy guesses are (1) Baki or Uri (I have trouble\ntelling them apart) and (2)\nSvon, not necessarily in that order. The Fire Aelf\nwould do it to help move\nthe expedition along and get Able back to what they\nconsider his main\nmission, fighting Kulili. Svon would do it to save\nIdnn from a fate worse\nthan death. (Who else thought the witch's graphic\ndescription of how a human\nwoman makes love to a giant a bit out of place in an\nostensibly YA novel?)\n\n-- Dave, aka Vizcacha\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005b01c4f1c6$d085ba20$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-03T11:02:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions", "in_reply_to": "<006301c4f1bf$40e0fa30$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, Able doesn't ascend . . . at least not at\nthe end of the novel. Following his disobedience of\nthe Valfather, Able (with Disiri) descends to\nAelfrice, which is where Michael comes to get him for\nsome mission we do not know. I'm very curious about\nthis mission and where it takes place. I half-suspect\nwe're supposed to think it takes place in America." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since Michael has been sent from Kleos, that is surely to where they are\ngoing. The \"great knight\", Sir Able of the High Heart, did not yet exist\nwhen Able first met Michael. First Able had to win his sword, spend 20 years\nin Skai, and free Mythgarthr and Aelfrice from the tyranny of their \"lower\ndragons'.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050103192634.53344.qmail@web20025.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T11:26:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions", "in_reply_to": "<005b01c4f1c6$d085ba20$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm afraid I can't agree. I think you are overhasty\nto assume that Able is bound for Kleos simply because\nMichael comes from there, although I don't say you are\nwrong either. I'd like to see more evidence in the\ntext of where he is bound. Also, if you look back to\nThe Knight, you will find that Michael goes to\nAelfrice in quest of \"that far-famed knight, Sir Able\nof the High Heart.\" At the end of The Wizard, when\nSir Able reports that Michael has come for him, that\nis the end of the journey that Michael interrupted\nbriefly beside the pool in Mythgarthr. It is clear\nfrom the beginning of The Wizard Knight that the book\n(letter to Ben) is being written from Aelfrice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:\nActually, Able doesn't ascend . . . at least not at\nthe end of the novel. Following his disobedience of\nthe Valfather, Able (with Disiri) descends to\nAelfrice, which is where Michael comes to get him\nfor\nsome mission we do not know. I'm very curious\nabout\nthis mission and where it takes place. I\nhalf-suspect\nwe're supposed to think it takes place in America." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since Michael has been sent from Kleos, that is\nsurely to where they are\ngoing. The \"great knight\", Sir Able of the High\nHeart, did not yet exist\nwhen Able first met Michael. First Able had to win\nhis sword, spend 20 years\nin Skai, and free Mythgarthr and Aelfrice from the\ntyranny of their \"lower\ndragons'.\n\n~ Crush\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050103193037.54954.qmail@web50303.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T11:30:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<20050103181801.56054.qmail@web20022.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gilling was attacked both times by Sir Garvaon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I second that. Able spells it out a little bit at one point, when he mentions that\nthe archers who marched out to the battle before the gates of the giants' castle\n(can't remember the name) were white-faced not because of their terror of battle,\nbut because Sir Garvaon had just killed King Gilling (who attempted to get outside\nwhen he heard Idnn but fell down in the inner courtyard) in front of them.\n\nAlso, Able refused to tell . . . Arnthor, I think, when pressed, but when Able was\nasked if it was because he was afraid for that person's safety, Able said no. \nGarvaon was already dead at this point and Able was preserving his honor and memory\n(esp with Idnn).\n\nI thought of a couple more questions that I think I need to reread the books to\nframe properly. Here goes anyway:\n\nSeveral people have mentioned that they thought the green knight Able sees on the\nIsle of Glass in The Knight was Arnthor. I only buy this if you also subscribe to\nthe 'Able is Arnthor' theory, because Parka said fairly clearly that the only person\non that isle was Able himself. So, I think the knight was Able after he slew\nGrengarm; the description fits, right? But at what point does he see himself? He\nonly visits the Isle once in The Wizard, when he goes to rescue Pouk and them, if I\nremember correctly, but there's no mention of the previous episode. Thoughts?\n\nI have this mind-tickling recollection of Able (in The Knight, referring to a\n'future' event) saying he fought a man who was so strong that he nearly broke (or\ndid break?) Able's ribs during a fight, bear-hugging him. I thought the reference\nwas to a fight Able was going to have trying to guard the mountain pass. Does\nanyone else remember this?\n\nLastly, I thought I remembered Able (again, in The Knight) describing Toug on the\nwalls of the giants' castle, much as Able himself climbed from window to window. Of\ncourse, at that point I was envisioning a daring rescue, but even so I don't\nremember Toug climbing the walls of Utgard (! I finally remembered the name) at any\npoint during The Wizard.\n\nNate\n\n\n\t\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<007301c4f1cd$c7c03a30$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T11:52:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<20050103193037.54954.qmail@web50303.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lastly, I thought I remembered Able (again, in The Knight) describing Toug\non the\nwalls of the giants' castle, much as Able himself climbed from window to\nwindow. Of\ncourse, at that point I was envisioning a daring rescue, but even so I\ndon't\nremember Toug climbing the walls of Utgard (! I finally remembered the\nname) at any\npoint during The Wizard." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Toug climbs the walls following after Mani, with the (somewhat) help of\nBaki. This is when they are first in Utgard.\n\n-- Dave, aka Vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173705010311565e5f1900@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T11:56:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - do not read until Jan 1", "in_reply_to": "<6477F80E-593A-11D9-A0C4-0003939CE29C@earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually I read Ormsby as \"Of the Worm,\" i.e., Pendragon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:38:51 -0800, Don Doggett wrote:\nHey everyone,\n I'm moving to a new apt. so I'm posting early. I'll probably check my\nmail at the library but I don't know how much I'll be posting for a few\nweeks. There's plenty to be touched on in these two books but I'm\ngoing to give a few general observations and then hit on a very\nspecific point. First the generalities: I think Wolfe erred in making\nAble a modern kid from America. It's the single thing that keeps this\nbook from being a great work. It constantly pulled me out of the book\nand it says a lot for the power of the story itself that I invested\nmajor effort in forgetting Able's origins whenever possible. Still IMO\nit's a major flaw. Maybe this is my problem, but I doubt I'm alone in\nthis. Also the first part of the Wizard with Toug and Mani in Utgard\nthreatened to bog down the whole book. The story hits its stride when\nAble appears again though, and it achieves some very high points. I\nlove Wolfe's characterization of Skai and its inhabitants. I wasn't so\nkeen on his hierarchy of beings. Too reductionist for me, but GW let's\nme get around it by having fallible narrators. I would like to ask an\nopen question. Is it useful to look at this work as a source of\nanswers for themes in Wolfe's other works, especially NS, LS, and SS?\nI personally think it is but I don't want to bother going down that\npath if we have to argue whether it is indeed useful first. Did anyone\nelse see Severian in the Black Caan? Because this is technically a YA\nnovel, it seems to me that Wolfe was a little more straightforward in\nhis themes and maybe it will shed some light on other books that have\nbeen murkier. There are still space creatures, giants, clones,\nartificial intelligences, and composite beings.\n\nOk, the specific thing I want to post on is Able's real name, Arthur\nOrmsby. Anyone who has read GW knows that he doesn't hide a name for\ntwo books and reveal it in the utter last moment and not have it mean\nsomething. A big something I think. Someone (I think it was Marc)\nsaid that they wouldn't be surprised if Able and Arnthor turned out to\nbe the same person in the end. I Think this is essentially correct.\nIn my last post (and thank you for the kind words Charles) I said that\nI felt that Silkhorn was the ideal Silk of Horn's book of Silk, a Silk\nthat the man of that name fell short of. Able says that he was raised\nup by the Aelf to be a messenger to Arnthor and that in order to\ndeliver this message he had to be a worthy messenger. Hence his\ntrials. This is wrong. Able isn't the messenger, he's the message.\nAble is the Aelf's rebuke to Arnthor, rubbing his face into how far\nshort he has fallen. He carries Eterne (excalibur) a sword Arnthor\ncan't even draw. His coat of arms bears a dragon. Shame is what\ncauses Arnthor to imprison Able. I think that Wolfe is riffing off the\nidea of many versions of Arthur in history and legend. This recalls to\nme the scene in \"The Last Temptation of Christ\" (I haven't read the\nbook) where the Jesus who saved himself from the cross confronts Paul\nand calls him a fraud. And Paul says he doesn't care who Jesus is, the\npeople need someone and he would happily make up the whole story if\nnecessary. Able is sort of that Pauline Jesus (Silkhorn too, for that\nmatter) Anyhow, on to the name. Arthur is evident. Orm means \"elm\" so\nessentially Ormsby means \"of the elm\". This brings up several\ninteresting associations. The first is that the elm (or Ailm) is an\nAleph symbol (at least according to Graves, and even though Wolfe has\nsaid he was a crackpot, which is true, I'm certain he finds him\nthematically useful). Another is that the elm is a symbol of death.\nRecall that Able's new puppy is a white dog with red ears, a dog of the\nGoddess in her death aspect and one of the hounds of Annwyn as well (I\nthink, but clearly a death symbol- by the way Farvan, as far as I can\nfind, is another word for Pharaoh). Most interesting to me, one of the\nvariants of the Death of Arthur has him being killed by a youth (who\nseems to be from faerie) on a horse wielding a spear made of the elm.\nI'm not sure why GW chose these associations, but I'm pretty sure\nthey're not random.\n\nRegards\nDon\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<006e01c4f1d3$cd19f380$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-03T12:35:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions", "in_reply_to": "<20050103192634.53344.qmail@web20025.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, if you look back to\nThe Knight, you will find that Michael goes to\nAelfrice in quest of \"that far-famed knight, Sir Able\nof the High Heart.\" At the end of The Wizard, when\nSir Able reports that Michael has come for him, that\nis the end of the journey that Michael interrupted\nbriefly beside the pool in Mythgarthr. It is clear\nfrom the beginning of The Wizard Knight that the book\n(letter to Ben) is being written from Aelfrice." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Umm...yes, I agree. Michael goes to Aelfrice to find Able of the High Heart\nand that is where he finds him...at the end of the story. He goes in search\nof him there even though He is talking to Able at the pool...ergo, the Able\nthat Michael is seeking does not exist until the end of the novel. I think\nwe agree on this, no?\n\nIt seemed obvious to me that Able and Disiri were on their way to Kleo when\nMichael arrives to fetch them. But if you can point out a more likely\nlocation, I'd be interested to hear of it.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050103205411.72177.qmail@web20025.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T12:54:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions", "in_reply_to": "<006e01c4f1d3$cd19f380$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I see we do agree. Able is in Aelfrice at the\nend of The Wizard Knight (and indeed, at its\nbeginning). But where he is bound after the close of\nthe book is, I think, open to question.\n\nIt's certainly possible that Michael has come to fetch\nAble in order to serve the Valfather in his\nRagnarok-like battle against the Frost giants. I don't\nfind this a satisfying conclusion.\n\nIt's possible that Able is being returned to\nMythgarthr. This seems thematically pointless.\n\nIt's possible that Michael is bringing Able to Kleos,\nbut I'm not sure what battle he would be fighting\nthere, and against whom. Is there a Lucifer-like\nrebellion against the Most High God taking place?\n\nI was never sure if Michael, once having left Kleos,\nwas able to return to it. He mentions being cast out,\nor an exile, like Able, and implies that he has been\nexiled for the sin of pride.\n\nWolfe's system of rising to the levels above one's\n\"home\" level seems to break down above Skai; at least,\nwe never hear of anyone rising to Kleos, though we\nhear of many falling from that height (i.e., the\nValfather and others).\n\nParka's bowstring provides a link back to our world\n(of America, Macs, etc.). Able dreams of this world,\nand of himself in it (in an ambulance, among other\nthings). There is clearly a lot of back and forthing\nbetween America and Mythgarthr; it's probably\nsignificant that Able never looks at himself while\nwearing the helmet.\n\nIn any case, I don't understand why Wolfe would stress\nso many links to America if it didn't play an\nimportant part in the novel, and moreoever in the\nresolution of the novel. That's why I'm trying to\ndecide whether it's possible that Michael is fetching\nAble to serve some knightly function in America -- the\nAmerica of today. I think it is possible, based on\nthe text. But I don't have any proof that's what\nWolfe intends.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, if you look back to\nThe Knight, you will find that Michael goes to\nAelfrice in quest of \"that far-famed knight, Sir\nAble\nof the High Heart.\" At the end of The Wizard, when\nSir Able reports that Michael has come for him,\nthat\nis the end of the journey that Michael interrupted\nbriefly beside the pool in Mythgarthr. It is\nclear\nfrom the beginning of The Wizard Knight that the\nbook\n(letter to Ben) is being written from Aelfrice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Umm...yes, I agree. Michael goes to Aelfrice to find\nAble of the High Heart\nand that is where he finds him...at the end of the\nstory. He goes in search\nof him there even though He is talking to Able at\nthe pool...ergo, the Able\nthat Michael is seeking does not exist until the end\nof the novel. I think\nwe agree on this, no?\n\nIt seemed obvious to me that Able and Disiri were on\ntheir way to Kleo when\nMichael arrives to fetch them. But if you can point\nout a more likely\nlocation, I'd be interested to hear of it.\n\n~ Crush\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050103211454.38587.qmail@web50310.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T13:14:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions", "in_reply_to": "<20050103205411.72177.qmail@web20025.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The ambulance? That's Arthur Ormsby being taken to the hospital of course!\nThey found him in a coma possibly near death from hypothermia in that valley\nwhere the Moss Aelf took him. Presumably, when he reaches the Most High God,\nhe will awake." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been mulling on this, and I think you're saying that he's going to wake up in\nAmerica to discover that he's still a young boy, similar to King Peter and the rest\nin Narnia reverting to children after their adventures. Honestly, if this is what\nWolfe intends then I feel cheated. Is this guesswork on your part or are there more\nclues pointing that direction in the text? It feels a little small somehow.\n\nThen again, it does point to a Christian interpretation of the text in small ways:\n\"a great lord requires service from a knight,\" or however that went." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it's probably\nsignificant that Able never looks at himself while\nwearing the helmet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought it was very significant that he did look at himself while wearing the\nhelmet. He looked at his reflection in the water (seeing Disiri as a human woman\nnext to him) just before he cast the helmet far out into it. He sees himself as a\nknight and not a small boy, which was what he expected to see." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050103212146.79154.qmail@web20025.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T13:21:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions", "in_reply_to": "<20050103211454.38587.qmail@web50310.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Damn -- my apologies for missing that. Something more\nto think about . . .\n\nP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Nathan Spears wrote:\nJames Wynn said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The ambulance? That's Arthur Ormsby being taken to\nthe hospital of course!\nThey found him in a coma possibly near death from\nhypothermia in that valley\nwhere the Moss Aelf took him. Presumably, when he\nreaches the Most High God,\nhe will awake." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been mulling on this, and I think you're saying\nthat he's going to wake up in\nAmerica to discover that he's still a young boy,\nsimilar to King Peter and the rest\nin Narnia reverting to children after their\nadventures. Honestly, if this is what\nWolfe intends then I feel cheated. Is this\nguesswork on your part or are there more\nclues pointing that direction in the text? It feels\na little small somehow.\n\nThen again, it does point to a Christian\ninterpretation of the text in small ways:\n\"a great lord requires service from a knight,\" or\nhowever that went." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "it's probably\nsignificant that Able never looks at himself while\nwearing the helmet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought it was very significant that he did look\nat himself while wearing the\nhelmet. He looked at his reflection in the water\n(seeing Disiri as a human woman\nnext to him) just before he cast the helmet far out\ninto it. He sees himself as a\nknight and not a small boy, which was what he\nexpected to see.\n\n__________________________________________________\nDo You Yahoo!?\nTired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam\nprotection around \nhttp://mail.yahoo.com \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<007301c4f1dd$7f07caa0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-03T13:45:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions", "in_reply_to": "<20050103211454.38587.qmail@web50310.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The ambulance? That's Arthur Ormsby being taken to the hospital of course!\nThey found him in a coma possibly near death from hypothermia in that\nvalley\nwhere the Moss Aelf took him. Presumably, when he reaches the Most High\nGod, he will awake." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been mulling on this, and I think you're saying that he's going to\nwake up\nin America to discover that he's still a young boy, similar to King Peter\nand\nthe rest in Narnia reverting to children after their adventures." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Honestly, if" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "this is what Wolfe intends then I feel cheated. Is this guesswork on your\npart or are there more\nclues pointing that direction in the text? It feels a little small\nsomehow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My only real evidence is that Able says HE is in that ambulance. IIRC.\n\nAs for it being small, I think this is a small part of Wolfe's intent in the\nnovel. I was pretty sure that this world was internal in THE KNIGHT when\nAble learned he could not drown and that he *was* the sea in some sense.\nThis is all very standard fair for the fantasy/kidnap novel genre.\n\nWhat's vital about the novel to me is what Wolfe is saying about honor,\nabout loss, about existence, and about sin.\n\nHigh points? 1)Valfather coming to Idnn to bestow his favor having won great\nhonor in her dealings as King Gilling's wife. 2) The conversation with the\nThiazi when he reveals that Giants love but are never loved. 3) Able's\ndiscussion with Mani about the soul.\n\nPersonally, I'm more distressed by the fact that this is the second Wolfe\nnovel in a row in which being blinded is a key narrative element. Any\nreason?\n\n~Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001b01c4f20c$21868590$63fc06cf@rw9s6no3t0dhzd>", "from": { "name": "Russell Wodell", "address": "wrustle at telus.net" }, "date": "2005-01-03T19:18:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<20050103193037.54954.qmail@web50303.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What would be Sir Garvaon's motive for killing Gilling? (Rhyme \nunintentional) And why would Wolfe conceal this for so long?\n\nFor this and other reasons, I am fairly certain that Iddn is the murderer. \nShe agreed to marry Gilling to achieve power, which she maintains with her \narmy of giantesses, but killed him because sexual congress would mean her \ndeath either in coitus or in giving birth to a giant, as Wolfe makes \ngruesomely explicit.\n\nIf I'm right, this further underlines the increasing strain of misogyny in \nlate Wolfe...\n\nRussell " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-03T22:01:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<001b01c4f20c$21868590$63fc06cf@rw9s6no3t0dhzd>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Russell Wodell\" \nWhat would be Sir Garvaon's motive for killing Gilling? (Rhyme\nunintentional) And why would Wolfe conceal this for so long?>" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Garvaon is in love with Idnn--so kills Gilling out of jealousy or to spare \nIdnn the painful coitus/childbirth you mention. Able presages all this early \nin _The Knight_ when he writes, \"All the time we were talking, I was \nthinking about what Idnn had said about Beel giving her to King Gilling, but \nI could not tell Garvaon and I would have been afraid of what he might do if \nI did.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I'm right, this further underlines the increasing strain of misogyny in\nlate Wolfe..>" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But even if your Idnn-as-murderess hypothesis were true, I'm not sure how \nprotecting yourself against sexual mutilation and/or death-due-to-childbirth \nis misogynistic.\n\nI rather liked Idnn as a character and believe her agreeing to marry King \nGilling is every bit as noble, selfless and dutiful as anything Able, Svon \nor Toug do in their various undertakings as knights aspirant.\n\nmsg" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050104132250.60230.qmail@web20025.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-04T05:22:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<001b01c4f20c$21868590$63fc06cf@rw9s6no3t0dhzd>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is pretty explicit (for Wolfe!) about Garvaon\nbeing the murderer. This occurs after his death, when\nAbel is answering various questions put to him by Beel\nand others about the attack and the murder. His\nmotive is that he is in love with Iddn and can't bear\nto see her honor (as he perceives it) besmirched by\nthe forced marriage to Gilling. His murder of\nGilling, in knightly terms, is a deeply selfish and\ndishonorable act -- thus it's interesting that he is\n\"raised\" to Skai. But then again, Abel himself goes\nagainst the knightly code many times, and is rewarded\nfor it.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Russell Wodell wrote:\nWhat would be Sir Garvaon's motive for killing\nGilling? (Rhyme \nunintentional) And why would Wolfe conceal this for\nso long?\n\nFor this and other reasons, I am fairly certain that\nIddn is the murderer. \nShe agreed to marry Gilling to achieve power, which\nshe maintains with her \narmy of giantesses, but killed him because sexual\ncongress would mean her \ndeath either in coitus or in giving birth to a\ngiant, as Wolfe makes \ngruesomely explicit.\n\nIf I'm right, this further underlines the increasing\nstrain of misogyny in \nlate Wolfe...\n\nRussell \n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20520683.1104865803869.JavaMail.root@huey.psp.pas.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "harlekin at earthlink.net", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-04T11:10:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<20050104132250.60230.qmail@web20025.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a paradox. Garvaon sacrifices his knightly honor to benefit Idnn, something not even Able is willing to do.\nDon\n\n His murder of\nGilling, in knightly terms, is a deeply selfish and\ndishonorable act -- thus it's interesting that he is\n\"raised\" to Skai. But then again, Abel himself goes\nagainst the knightly code many times, and is rewarded\nfor it.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Russell Wodell wrote:\nWhat would be Sir Garvaon's motive for killing\nGilling? (Rhyme \nunintentional) And why would Wolfe conceal this for\nso long?\n\nFor this and other reasons, I am fairly certain that\nIddn is the murderer. \nShe agreed to marry Gilling to achieve power, which\nshe maintains with her \narmy of giantesses, but killed him because sexual\ncongress would mean her \ndeath either in coitus or in giving birth to a\ngiant, as Wolfe makes \ngruesomely explicit.\n\nIf I'm right, this further underlines the increasing\nstrain of misogyny in \nlate Wolfe...\n\nRussell \n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050104194907.81348.qmail@web20027.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-04T11:49:08+00:00", "subject": "(FWD) Re: (urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<20520683.1104865803869.JavaMail.root@huey.psp.pas.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure that Garvaon's sacrifice would have been\nappreciated by Idnn had she known of it. In fact, I'm\npretty confident she would find it reprehensible and\noffensive. Garvaon's motivation is selfish. He\nredeems himself in battling Setr. Had he died in\nalmost any other way, I doubt he would have been\nraised to Skai. One interesting theme that runs\nthroughout the Wizard Knight is that of redemption, of\nsecond (and sometimes even third and fourth) chances.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- harlekin at earthlink.net wrote:\nThis is a paradox. Garvaon sacrifices his knightly\nhonor to benefit Idnn, something not even Able is\nwilling to do.\nDon\n\n His murder of\nGilling, in knightly terms, is a deeply selfish and\ndishonorable act -- thus it's interesting that he is\n\"raised\" to Skai. But then again, Abel himself goes\nagainst the knightly code many times, and is\nrewarded\nfor it.\n\nPaul\n\n--- Russell Wodell wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What would be Sir Garvaon's motive for killing\nGilling? (Rhyme \nunintentional) And why would Wolfe conceal this\nfor\nso long?\n\nFor this and other reasons, I am fairly certain\nthat\nIddn is the murderer. \nShe agreed to marry Gilling to achieve power,\nwhich\nshe maintains with her \narmy of giantesses, but killed him because sexual\ncongress would mean her \ndeath either in coitus or in giving birth to a\ngiant, as Wolfe makes \ngruesomely explicit.\n\nIf I'm right, this further underlines the\nincreasing\nstrain of misogyny in \nlate Wolfe...\n\nRussell \n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }