{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4289", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4289, "subject": "TWK questions and answers", "messages": 7, "voices": 6, "first": "2005-01-04T06:05:56+00:00", "last": "2005-01-04T11:01:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<003101c4f266$81418fc0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-04T06:05:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK questions and answers", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I rather liked Idnn as a character and believe her agreeing to marry King\nGilling is every bit as noble, selfless and dutiful as anything Able, Svon\nor Toug do in their various undertakings as knights aspirant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that was Wolfe's point right? That honor and courage are more than just\ncarrying a weapon against overwhelming odds or protecting your reputation -- \nalthough that might be part of the duties of honor too. It is about giving\nup what you would really want (including potentially a long life) for the\nbenefit of others. When Able refuses to carry a sword when he knows it will\ngo against him in being taken seriously as a knight, that is honor. When he\nrebuffs sex with willing women for his love for Disiri, that is honor. And\nwhen Idnn (although terrified) takes on the mantle of the duties of being\nKing Gilling's wife -- guarding his life and well-being when it would be\nbetter for her if he died -- that is honor and that is why Valfather comes\nto visit her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just\nfound it hard to buy the notion that a brief marriage, not known to\nbe consummated, would be taken as conferring authority on a\nforeigner. And maybe I missed why the female Angrborn live apart,\nand why the males prefer human women." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Male and female giants live apart just as male and female elephants live\napart.\n\nThey accept her as her queen as a matter of honor. Furthermore, I don't\nthink you can map human relations to the giants. The mothers don't love\ntheir sons. In fact, they are presumably contemptible to them. The male\ngiants are attracted to human women because they ARE NOT giants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any thoughts on why the blood of the Angrborn is full of parasites? Aside\nfrom just making them seeem extra vile?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is taken from the myth of the death of Ymir. Men were formed from the\nmaggots that formed on his corpse. So when Giants die their corpses are\ncovered with creepy-crawlies.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050104142210.83899.qmail@web20022.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-04T06:22:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK questions and answers", "in_reply_to": "<003101c4f266$81418fc0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regarding the giants and giantesses, I wouldn't be\nsurprised if Wolfe was also thinking of the Ents and\nthe Entwives. There are many reworkings of ideas from\nLOTR in TWK. Abel as a Gandalf/Aragorn figure is\nanother.\n\nP\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:\nI rather liked Idnn as a character and believe her\nagreeing to marry King\nGilling is every bit as noble, selfless and dutiful\nas anything Able, Svon\nor Toug do in their various undertakings as knights\naspirant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And that was Wolfe's point right? That honor and\ncourage are more than just\ncarrying a weapon against overwhelming odds or\nprotecting your reputation -- \nalthough that might be part of the duties of honor\ntoo. It is about giving\nup what you would really want (including potentially\na long life) for the\nbenefit of others. When Able refuses to carry a\nsword when he knows it will\ngo against him in being taken seriously as a knight,\nthat is honor. When he\nrebuffs sex with willing women for his love for\nDisiri, that is honor. And\nwhen Idnn (although terrified) takes on the mantle\nof the duties of being\nKing Gilling's wife -- guarding his life and\nwell-being when it would be\nbetter for her if he died -- that is honor and that\nis why Valfather comes\nto visit her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just\nfound it hard to buy the notion that a brief\nmarriage, not known to\nbe consummated, would be taken as conferring\nauthority on a\nforeigner. And maybe I missed why the female\nAngrborn live apart,\nand why the males prefer human women." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Male and female giants live apart just as male and\nfemale elephants live\napart.\n\nThey accept her as her queen as a matter of honor. \nFurthermore, I don't\nthink you can map human relations to the giants. The\nmothers don't love\ntheir sons. In fact, they are presumably\ncontemptible to them. The male\ngiants are attracted to human women because they ARE\nNOT giants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Any thoughts on why the blood of the Angrborn is\nfull of parasites? Aside\nfrom just making them seeem extra vile?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is taken from the myth of the death of Ymir. Men\nwere formed from the\nmaggots that formed on his corpse. So when Giants\ndie their corpses are\ncovered with creepy-crawlies.\n\n~ Crush\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-04T08:28:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK questions and answers", "in_reply_to": "<003101c4f266$81418fc0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Male and female giants live apart just as male and female elephants live\napart." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nOdd, this. It is not from the Norse, unlike nearly very thing else in TWK. \n\nThere are plenty of stories of cohabitation between the gods and the giants, \nand the giantesses are usually seen as sexually attractive to the gods: but \nthe idea that the giants and giantesses are separate species does not exist \nin that culture-stream. I don't know what its source is. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is taken from the myth of the death of Ymir. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nAh, yes. \n\n\n hartshorn \n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f761737050104092236f7be8f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-04T09:22:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK questions and answers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 16:28:48 +0000, Andy Robertson\n wrote:\nJames Wynn writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Male and female giants live apart just as male and female elephants live\napart." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Odd, this. It is not from the Norse, unlike nearly very thing else in TWK." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are a number of Celtic and Mediterranean bits running around,\nalso, notably Kulilli, who's Babylonian." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nFreedom has no barcode.\n --J.G. Ballard" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050104181227.97820.qmail@web50305.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-04T10:12:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK questions and answers", "in_reply_to": "<003101c4f266$81418fc0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just\nfound it hard to buy the notion that a brief marriage, not known to\nbe consummated, would be taken as conferring authority on a\nforeigner. And maybe I missed why the female Angrborn live apart,\nand why the males prefer human women." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Male and female giants live apart just as male and female elephants live\napart." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I got the impression it was because the males felt emasculated by their women, who\nare larger and stronger than they are, and perhaps because the giantesses don't want\nthem around. Notice that Utgard is in the southern part of the kingdom of the\ngiants; for a species where colder is better, the northern land would be the most\ndesirable.\n\nI also noted that Wolfe didn't go out of his way to paint the giantesses as inhuman\nand grotesque the way he did the giants, and that Able refers to one as if she were\nattractive; I wonder if they don't look vastly different from the giants as well.\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<28142494.1104865034436.JavaMail.root@huey.psp.pas.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "harlekin at earthlink.net", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-04T10:57:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK questions and answers", "in_reply_to": "<20050104181227.97820.qmail@web50305.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he is linking them thematically to the undines of Urth. The giantesses' ancestors are the Giants of winter and old night, who GW makes clear are from deep space.\nDon\n\nI also noted that Wolfe didn't go out of his way to paint the giantesses as inhuman\nand grotesque the way he did the giants, and that Able refers to one as if she were\nattractive; I wonder if they don't look vastly different from the giants as well.\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<30919443.1104865283327.JavaMail.root@huey.psp.pas.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "harlekin at earthlink.net", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-04T11:01:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK questions and answers", "in_reply_to": "<28142494.1104865034436.JavaMail.root@huey.psp.pas.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this also has a connection to Kulili. She is a composite creature made from worms, and acording to Able's accounting of the creation of the worlds, the lower are made from the cast offs of the upper.\nDon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any thoughts on why the blood of the Angrborn is full of parasites? Aside\nfrom just making them seeem extra vile?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is taken from the myth of the death of Ymir. Men were formed from the\nmaggots that formed on his corpse. So when Giants die their corpses are\ncovered with creepy-crawlies.\n\n~ Crush" } ] } ] }