{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4290", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4290, "subject": "(FWD) Re: (urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "2005-01-04T11:58:09+00:00", "last": "2005-01-05T10:25:30+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<22231735.1104868686546.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "harlekin at earthlink.net", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-04T11:58:09+00:00", "subject": "(FWD) Re: (urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I'm not sure that Garvaon's sacrifice would have been\nappreciated by Idnn had she known of it. In fact, I'm\npretty confident she would find it reprehensible and\noffensive.\"\n\nThat's the point. Garvaon gets no benefit from his action. It's a sacrifice of honor on his part. Thus it is selfish and selfless at the same time. Garvaon's death is a gift to him so he won't have to live with his shame, not an act of redemption. His place is skai was assured, IMO.\n\nDon\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050104200329.96785.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-04T12:03:43+00:00", "subject": "(FWD) Re: (urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<22231735.1104868686546.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're ascribing far too much nobility to\nGarvaon and this action. Otherwise he would not\nattempt to hide what he had done. But I think Wolfe\nleaves room for careful readers to disagree on this\nand many other points.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- harlekin at earthlink.net wrote:\n\n\n\n\"I'm not sure that Garvaon's sacrifice would have\nbeen\nappreciated by Idnn had she known of it. In fact,\nI'm\npretty confident she would find it reprehensible and\noffensive.\"\n\nThat's the point. Garvaon gets no benefit from his\naction. It's a sacrifice of honor on his part. \nThus it is selfish and selfless at the same time. \nGarvaon's death is a gift to him so he won't have to\nlive with his shame, not an act of redemption. His\nplace is skai was assured, IMO.\n\nDon\n\n \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173705010412082f413b3e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-04T12:08:46+00:00", "subject": "(FWD) Re: (urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<20050104200329.96785.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stilskin,\n\nI disagree. Garvaon _had_ to hide what he had done, or it\nwould have had far worse consequences than the ones he \nwas hoping to avoid - if the Angrborn had known that one \nof the \"hotlanders\" (and one of the \"honorable\" knights no \nless) had murdered their king, they would have slaughtered \nall the knights and the men-at-arms, and enslaved the rest, \nincluding Idnn, so she would have wound up in the same \nposition (so to speak) except with someone other than \nGilling, and probabily-possibly not even the new king but \njust some random Angrborn freeholder who bought her at \nauction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:03:29 -0800 (PST), stilskin wrote:\nI think you're ascribing far too much nobility to\nGarvaon and this action. Otherwise he would not\nattempt to hide what he had done. But I think Wolfe\nleaves room for careful readers to disagree on this\nand many other points.\n\n--- harlekin at earthlink.net wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I'm not sure that Garvaon's sacrifice would have\nbeen\nappreciated by Idnn had she known of it. In fact,\nI'm\npretty confident she would find it reprehensible and\noffensive.\"\n\nThat's the point. Garvaon gets no benefit from his\naction. It's a sacrifice of honor on his part.\nThus it is selfish and selfless at the same time.\nGarvaon's death is a gift to him so he won't have to\nlive with his shame, not an act of redemption. His\nplace is skai was assured, IMO.\n\nDon\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050104203123.45553.qmail@web20026.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-04T12:31:27+00:00", "subject": "(FWD) Re: (urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<1f76173705010412082f413b3e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a convincing argument for keeping it a secret,\nbut not for his doing it in the first place. I could\ncertainly be wrong about Garvaon's actions here; it\nwouldn't be the first time I'd misinterpreted Wolfe! \nBut so far I'm unconvinced that we are meant to find\nGarvaon's actions noble.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nStilskin,\n\nI disagree. Garvaon _had_ to hide what he had done,\nor it\nwould have had far worse consequences than the ones\nhe \nwas hoping to avoid - if the Angrborn had known that\none \nof the \"hotlanders\" (and one of the \"honorable\"\nknights no \nless) had murdered their king, they would have\nslaughtered \nall the knights and the men-at-arms, and enslaved\nthe rest, \nincluding Idnn, so she would have wound up in the\nsame \nposition (so to speak) except with someone other\nthan \nGilling, and probabily-possibly not even the new\nking but \njust some random Angrborn freeholder who bought her\nat \nauction.\n\n--Blattid\n\nOn Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:03:29 -0800 (PST), stilskin\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think you're ascribing far too much nobility to\nGarvaon and this action. Otherwise he would not\nattempt to hide what he had done. But I think\nWolfe\nleaves room for careful readers to disagree on\nthis\nand many other points.\n\n--- harlekin at earthlink.net wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"I'm not sure that Garvaon's sacrifice would\nhave\nbeen\nappreciated by Idnn had she known of it. In\nfact,\nI'm\npretty confident she would find it reprehensible\nand\noffensive.\"\n\nThat's the point. Garvaon gets no benefit from\nhis\naction. It's a sacrifice of honor on his part.\nThus it is selfish and selfless at the same\ntime.\nGarvaon's death is a gift to him so he won't\nhave to\nlive with his shame, not an act of redemption. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His\nplace is skai was assured, IMO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Don\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050104203453.97573.qmail@web50310.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-04T12:34:56+00:00", "subject": "(FWD) Re: (urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<20050104200329.96785.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I think the killing was motivated mainly by bitterness; Idnn was marrying an\nunworthy soulless creature for her father's political gain; Garvaon was unaware of\nthe true nature of the 'gift' to King Gilling until the arrival in Utgard; Idnn\nnever loved Garvaon, and in fact never knew of his love for her. I wouldn't say it\nwas a petty bitterness, but bubbled up from something bordering on anguish. I\nwouldn't even say it was an ignoble deed. Before the first stabbing, King Gilling\nhad just murdered a man with his fist, and had ordered what he thought would be the\nmurders of two knights for his court's amusement. The final blow was probably less\nhot-blooded but no less justified. The humans were trying to make peace with the\ngiants because they couldn't kill them all.\n\nBut it still wasn't a knightly deed, and one that Idnn would have reviled him for. \nGarvaon looked at Able as he died and said something like, \"You knew,\" because Able\nwas the only one Garvaon had confided in about his love for Idnn, and the only one\nwould understand all the forces pressuring him to commit such a deed. It was a\ndeparture from his nature, not an indicator of it; his death wasn't a redemption but\na sign that Garvaon was still a true knight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- stilskin wrote:\nI think you're ascribing far too much nobility to\nGarvaon and this action. Otherwise he would not\nattempt to hide what he had done. But I think Wolfe\nleaves room for careful readers to disagree on this\nand many other points.\n \n--- harlekin at earthlink.net wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I'm not sure that Garvaon's sacrifice would have\nbeen\nappreciated by Idnn had she known of it. In fact,\nI'm\npretty confident she would find it reprehensible and\noffensive.\"\n\nThat's the point. Garvaon gets no benefit from his\naction. It's a sacrifice of honor on his part. \nThus it is selfish and selfless at the same time. \nGarvaon's death is a gift to him so he won't have to\nlive with his shame, not an act of redemption. His\nplace is skai was assured, IMO.\n\nDon\n\n \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050104204206.48368.qmail@web20026.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-04T12:42:11+00:00", "subject": "(FWD) Re: (urth) The Wizard - questions -- answers (spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<20050104203453.97573.qmail@web50310.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a beautiful interpretation, and one that I\ncan't disagree with.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Nathan Spears wrote:\nYeah, I think the killing was motivated mainly by\nbitterness; Idnn was marrying an\nunworthy soulless creature for her father's\npolitical gain; Garvaon was unaware of\nthe true nature of the 'gift' to King Gilling until\nthe arrival in Utgard; Idnn\nnever loved Garvaon, and in fact never knew of his\nlove for her. I wouldn't say it\nwas a petty bitterness, but bubbled up from\nsomething bordering on anguish. I\nwouldn't even say it was an ignoble deed. Before\nthe first stabbing, King Gilling\nhad just murdered a man with his fist, and had\nordered what he thought would be the\nmurders of two knights for his court's amusement. \nThe final blow was probably less\nhot-blooded but no less justified. The humans were\ntrying to make peace with the\ngiants because they couldn't kill them all.\n\nBut it still wasn't a knightly deed, and one that\nIdnn would have reviled him for. \nGarvaon looked at Able as he died and said something\nlike, \"You knew,\" because Able\nwas the only one Garvaon had confided in about his\nlove for Idnn, and the only one\nwould understand all the forces pressuring him to\ncommit such a deed. It was a\ndeparture from his nature, not an indicator of it;\nhis death wasn't a redemption but\na sign that Garvaon was still a true knight.\n\n--- stilskin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think you're ascribing far too much nobility to\nGarvaon and this action. Otherwise he would not\nattempt to hide what he had done. But I think\nWolfe\nleaves room for careful readers to disagree on\nthis\nand many other points.\n \n--- harlekin at earthlink.net wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"I'm not sure that Garvaon's sacrifice would\nhave\nbeen\nappreciated by Idnn had she known of it. In\nfact,\nI'm\npretty confident she would find it reprehensible\nand\noffensive.\"\n\nThat's the point. Garvaon gets no benefit from\nhis\naction. It's a sacrifice of honor on his part. \nThus it is selfish and selfless at the same\ntime. \nGarvaon's death is a gift to him so he won't\nhave to\nlive with his shame, not an act of redemption. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His\nplace is skai was assured, IMO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Don\n\n \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00a801c4f353$edba9640$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-05T10:25:30+00:00", "subject": "(FWD) Re: (urth) Why Garvaon killed Gilling", "in_reply_to": "<20050104203453.97573.qmail@web50310.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the killing was motivated mainly by bitterness;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Although I agree with much that Nathan says on this subject, I think this\nstatement goes too far.\n\nGarvaon seems to see Idnn's marriage in the same way Idnn saw it as they\nwere approaching Utgard. (In the same way Adam Stephanides described on this\nlist IIRC). I don't think he saw it as any different from rescuing a \"fair\nmaiden\" from a dragon. Killing such a creature in that circumstance would be\nknightly in any circumstance...even if it were asleep. Humans and Giants are\nnot the same and the same rules of knightly killing do not apply. Able\ndoesn't refuse to rescue Idnn earlier because the act would be \"unkightly\".\nHe does it because the act would be impractical for both he *and* Idnn. Able\nrefers to it as equivalent to 'running away to live in Fairyland\". Although\nit appears that he eventually does that, it does not seem that at the time\nhe saw that as easily within his grasp.\n\nGarvaon on the other hand seems to have seen Idnn the way Able saw Disiri.\nAble would have committed any murder for her sake (and offers to). Was that\nunknightly behavior? Not as I recall the requirements of medieval \"courtly\nlove\".\n\nIt is true that Idnn would not have thanked Garvaon for his act, but that is\nbecause she saw things differently after her marriage. She seems to see\nmarriage -- even one to King Gilling -- as more than a formality. Idnn's and\nGarvaon's separate viewpoints on this are simply among the paradoxes of the\nknightly code.\n\n~ Crush" } ] } ] }