{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4291",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 4291,
    "subject": "urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 5, Issue 4",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "2005-01-04T13:19:01+00:00",
    "last": "2005-01-04T14:59:26+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<01ef01c4f2a2$fc82f0c0$d27cae44@akt>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Alice K. Turner",
        "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com"
      },
      "date": "2005-01-04T13:19:01+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 5, Issue 4",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "Under a variety\nof names, she was worshiped over the entire European continent from\nIreland to Slovakia and unlike the Norns (who were \"disir,\" or second\n-tier immortals, along with the Valkyries etc.) she operated alone."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Okay. but she *does* give a carved stick to Able at their first meeting \nand\nthat, along with her Fate's spinning wheel, pretty definitely identifies \nher\nas a Norn (they carved a staff to denote a man's fate rather than spun a\nthread...and they only conversed with Odin. hmmm). All this is six and \nhalf\na dozen, since Parca of childbirth was associated with the Fates and the\nMoria and the Gracae and the Furies and Keries all those other groups of\nthree women that measured the souls of mankind."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Well, the carved stick is a spindle, or something like it. I don't \nunderstand why you'd want to insist on her being a Norn when Wolfe has \nclearly indicated that she isn't. Her name is Perchta, Parka to Able's \nuntutored ear, she is described as such (the teeth particularly), she dwells \nabove the Overcym instead of being a minor deity like the Norns. Perchta was \nonce a very big deal in Europe as a goddess, pan-European, not local like \nthe Norns, who were always second-level deities like the others you mention.\n\n-alga "
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<007c01c4f2b1$08dc1230$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "James Wynn",
        "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net"
      },
      "date": "2005-01-04T14:59:26+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 5, Issue 4",
      "in_reply_to": "<01ef01c4f2a2$fc82f0c0$d27cae44@akt>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Well, the carved stick is a spindle, or something like it. I don't\nunderstand why you'd want to insist on her being a Norn when Wolfe has\nclearly indicated that she isn't. Her name is Perchta, Parka to Able's\nuntutored ear, she is described as such (the teeth particularly), she\ndwells\nabove the Overcym instead of being a minor deity like the Norns. Perchta\nwas\nonce a very big deal in Europe as a goddess, pan-European, not local like\nthe Norns, who were always second-level deities like the others you\nmention."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Has Wolfe truely said she is not a Norn, or are you inferring that from the\ntext? If the former, I yied now. If the latter, then I'll answer why I\ninsist on her being a Norn. She sits a a wheel spinning the Fates of men and\ngives a thread to Able.  Am I really reaching so far to identify her with as\nthe sum of the Moira, the Greek Fates? Able asks her if she is a\nfortuneteller and she answers that \"some have thought so\" or something like\nthat. But this is story stewing in Norse mythology, so when she gives Able a\ncarved stave, I say, \"Ah ha! Wolfe is balling the Norns *and* the Fates\nwithin Parka.\n\nAnd then there's her name, Parka. Parca is the Roman goddess of childbirth\nwho became the Parcae who were the (three) Roman goddesses of fate. They\nwere eventually dimished into beneficial spirits who watched over sleeping\ninfants (think of Able sleeping under her care after the Aelf brought him\nup). They were associated with the Greek Moira and therefore with the Norns.\n\n The \"carved stick\" of the Norns is usually referred to as a \"stave\". Of\ncourse what Parca gives to Able is his walking stick on which he had \"carved\nsome things\" before he was abducted: a real \"stave\" or \"staff\". When he gets\nit, he realizes that his carvings, without his realizing it at the time,\ntransformed it into a bow.\n\nFor this reason I don't think all Norse mythology are localized within Skai.\nThere's plenty of Norse mythological references in Mythgarthr and Aelfrice\n(including Disiri). And there is plenty of borrowing for other mythologies\nas well. Parka and Michael both are from Kleos. Yet perhaps there are Norns\nin Skai and Parka is above them since she is in some sense their \"source.\"\n\nIt is an interesting reach to identify Parca with Perchta, the \"bright one\",\nthe Lord of the Hunt whom Jacob Grimm identified with Hulda and through her\nto Hel. I would never have made that leap, but seeing that you have done so\nI'm not inclined to disagree with you for a host of reasons. Most people\nwould not see much point in naming such a person after the male Perchta, but\nI applaud your catch and agree with you.\n\n~ Crush"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}