Subject: (urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 5, Issue 4

From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:19:01 +0000

>>Under a variety
>>of names, she was worshiped over the entire European continent from
>>Ireland to Slovakia and unlike the Norns (who were "disir," or second
>>-tier immortals, along with the Valkyries etc.) she operated alone.
>
> Okay. but she *does* give a carved stick to Able at their first meeting 
> and
> that, along with her Fate's spinning wheel, pretty definitely identifies 
> her
> as a Norn (they carved a staff to denote a man's fate rather than spun a
> thread...and they only conversed with Odin. hmmm). All this is six and 
> half
> a dozen, since Parca of childbirth was associated with the Fates and the
> Moria and the Gracae and the Furies and Keries all those other groups of
> three women that measured the souls of mankind.

Well, the carved stick is a spindle, or something like it. I don't 
understand why you'd want to insist on her being a Norn when Wolfe has 
clearly indicated that she isn't. Her name is Perchta, Parka to Able's 
untutored ear, she is described as such (the teeth particularly), she dwells 
above the Overcym instead of being a minor deity like the Norns. Perchta was 
once a very big deal in Europe as a goddess, pan-European, not local like 
the Norns, who were always second-level deities like the others you mention.

-alga

---

From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 14:59:26 +0000

>the Norns, who were always second-level deities like the others you
mention.

Has Wolfe truely said she is not a Norn, or are you inferring that from the
text? If the former, I yied now. If the latter, then I'll answer why I
insist on her being a Norn. She sits a a wheel spinning the Fates of men and
gives a thread to Able.  Am I really reaching so far to identify her with as
the sum of the Moira, the Greek Fates? Able asks her if she is a
fortuneteller and she answers that "some have thought so" or something like
that. But this is story stewing in Norse mythology, so when she gives Able a
carved stave, I say, "Ah ha! Wolfe is balling the Norns *and* the Fates
within Parka.

And then there's her name, Parka. Parca is the Roman goddess of childbirth
who became the Parcae who were the (three) Roman goddesses of fate. They
were eventually dimished into beneficial spirits who watched over sleeping
infants (think of Able sleeping under her care after the Aelf brought him
up). They were associated with the Greek Moira and therefore with the Norns.

 The "carved stick" of the Norns is usually referred to as a "stave". Of
course what Parca gives to Able is his walking stick on which he had "carved
some things" before he was abducted: a real "stave" or "staff". When he gets
it, he realizes that his carvings, without his realizing it at the time,
transformed it into a bow.

For this reason I don't think all Norse mythology are localized within Skai.
There's plenty of Norse mythological references in Mythgarthr and Aelfrice
(including Disiri). And there is plenty of borrowing for other mythologies
as well. Parka and Michael both are from Kleos. Yet perhaps there are Norns
in Skai and Parka is above them since she is in some sense their "source."

It is an interesting reach to identify Parca with Perchta, the "bright one",
the Lord of the Hunt whom Jacob Grimm identified with Hulda and through her
to Hel. I would never have made that leap, but seeing that you have done so
I'm not inclined to disagree with you for a host of reasons. Most people
would not see much point in naming such a person after the male Perchta, but
I applaud your catch and agree with you.

~ Crush