{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4292", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4292, "subject": "Witch spirit and Tales of Silk and Horn", "messages": 9, "voices": 7, "first": "2005-01-05T21:14:44+00:00", "last": "2005-01-08T15:16:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20050106051438.OTDP27771.fed1rmmtao08.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "aramini1 at cox.net", "address": "aramini1 at cox.net" }, "date": "2005-01-05T21:14:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Witch spirit and Tales of Silk and Horn", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am still about fifty posts short of catching up, so perhaps some of this was covered, but I wanted to respond to a few things i read before I forgot.\n\nA)Wizard Knight: I find it interesting that Org is clearly some kind of mutant chameleon, with scales, a reptillian head, and the ability to blend into the background - but Able doesn't seem to categorize him as a \"Lizard\"man.\n\nAlso, the witches ghost is interesting to me in that she speaks to Able through the wind and the rain instead of with a real voice (in the hut where he meets Mani), just as Apheta does in Urth. Her spirit seems to be hanging out throughout The Wizard, too.\n\nB)\nI was reading a few posts called Tales of Silk and Horn and I wanted to say one small thing about that. I think the simplest scheme to describe who inhabits Silk's body at any given point in the narrative is that Horn's body dies on Green, his spirit is sent hurtling into Silk, whose spirit has been so wounded (or has vacated his body) that it is no longer extent in the body. \n\nThen, the quest to find Silk actually ENDS when Horn gives his (ok, Silk's) eye to Pig, allowing Silver Silk, who is a download of Silk from the mainframe into Pig, to re-enter the body of Silk by escaping Pig's eye , creating Silk+Horn. Then, Horn begins writing. He says his goodbyes and leaves the body of Silk, and then Silver Silk, who was never the real Silk, takes up the tale of Horn and his death at the beginning of In Green's Jungles, but denies that he is Silk until he is forced into it, so that in the text, Silk admits that he is in fact Silk at about the same place that Silver Silk is freed from Pig and placed in Silk's body.\n\nSo it is a copy of a copy of Silk that we are left with, like the copy of a copy of Severian at the end of Urth.\n\nHmm.\n\nMarc" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-06T00:50:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Witch spirit and Tales of Silk and Horn", "in_reply_to": "<20050106051438.OTDP27771.fed1rmmtao08.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's an interesting angle, but the point of those posts was an issue of what \nconstitutes the soul/spirit/identity. Without diving too deeply into it, the \nterms \"soul\" and \"spirit\", etc, were being used as shorthand in a way that \nevolved through the thread, so they can't be substituted freely. So your \nhypothesis is if anything even more problematic in this sense, because now \nyou're dealing with three entities instead of two.\n\nSaying that Silver Silk was \"never Silk\" commits you to what I was referring \nto as the \"simple view\". But, on the simple view, the download/upload \nprocess is merely memories and inclinations, not \"real\" spirit, or identity. \nAnd that's all Silver Silk would be, from that perspective: not Silk, not \n*anyone* in the sense of being an actual person - there would be no spirit \nassociated with Silver Silk.\n\nIf you take the complex view, in contrast, you can't say that Silver Silk \n\"was never Silk\" because he was as much \"Silk\" as the original at the time \nof the download, and has as much claim to the title as the organic version.\n\nSo this plotline would just about double the possible branches on the tree \nof interpretation. And it would double (or more) again if you take into \naccount the possibility that Pas (or someone else) might have downloaded \npartially into Silk before or after his upload (or before AND after, for \nthat matter)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "B)\nI was reading a few posts called Tales of Silk and Horn and I wanted to say \none small thing about that. I think the simplest scheme to describe who \ninhabits Silk's body at any given point in the narrative is that Horn's \nbody dies on Green, his spirit is sent hurtling into Silk, whose spirit has \nbeen so wounded (or has vacated his body) that it is no longer extent in \nthe body.\n\nThen, the quest to find Silk actually ENDS when Horn gives his (ok, Silk's) \neye to Pig, allowing Silver Silk, who is a download of Silk from the \nmainframe into Pig, to re-enter the body of Silk by escaping Pig's eye , \ncreating Silk+Horn. Then, Horn begins writing. He says his goodbyes and \nleaves the body of Silk, and then Silver Silk, who was never the real Silk, \ntakes up the tale of Horn and his death at the beginning of In Green's \nJungles, but denies that he is Silk until he is forced into it, so that in \nthe text, Silk admits that he is in fact Silk at about the same place that \nSilver Silk is freed from Pig and placed in Silk's body.\n\nSo it is a copy of a copy of Silk that we are left with, like the copy of a \ncopy of Severian at the end of Urth.\n\nHmm.\n\nMarc\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2005-01-06T04:12:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Witch spirit and Tales of Silk and Horn", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a message dated 1/6/2005 12:15:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, \naramini1 at cox.net writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "B)\nI was reading a few posts called Tales of Silk and Horn and I wanted to say \none small thing about that. I think the simplest scheme to describe who \ninhabits Silk's body at any given point in the narrative is that Horn's \nbody dies \non Green, his spirit is sent hurtling into Silk, whose spirit has been so \nwounded \n(or has vacated his body) that it is no longer extent in the body. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then, the quest to find Silk actually ENDS when Horn gives his (ok, Silk's) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "eye " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to Pig, allowing Silver Silk, who is a download of Silk from the mainframe \ninto \nPig, to re-enter the body of Silk by escaping Pig's eye , creating \nSilk+Horn. \nThen, Horn begins writing. He says his goodbyes and leaves the body of \nSilk, \nand then Silver Silk, who was never the real Silk, takes up the tale of \nHorn and \nhis death at the beginning of In Green's Jungles, but denies that he is \nSilk until \nhe is forced into it, so that in the text, Silk admits that he is in fact \nSilk at \nabout the same place that Silver Silk is freed from Pig and placed in \nSilk's body." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let me say that I really like this idea. Does this make up for my trying to \ndemolish your circular interpretation of WK in my last post? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So it is a copy of a copy of Silk that we are left with, like the copy of a \ncopy of \nSeverian at the end of Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But couldn't this be the real Silk now? Are souls subject to mechanical \nmanipulation and physical laws, or does the Outsider have direct authority\nover them? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002201c4f40c$90a53eb0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-06T08:27:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tales of Silk and Horn", "in_reply_to": "<20050106051438.OTDP27771.fed1rmmtao08.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then, the quest to find Silk actually ENDS when Horn gives his\n(ok, Silk's) eye to Pig, allowing Silver Silk, who is a download\nof Silk from the mainframe into Pig, to re-enter the body of Silk\nby escaping Pig's eye , creating Silk+Horn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there any unambiguous example where the gods transfer eye-to-eye rather\nthan exclusively eye-to-Sacred Window?\n\nI can think of one instance that suggests this is impossible.\nKypris-In-Chenille tells Silk that Maytera Mint had a partial download of\nKypris (because she forced herself to look away). She tells Silk that they\nneed to get Mint to a Sacred Window before she has some sort of breakdown.\nBut if eye-to-eye transfers were possible, Chenille only needed to get alone\nwith Mint and look her in the eye. Thus, it seems, eye to eye transfers are\nnot possible.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-06T18:45:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Witch spirit and Tales of Silk and Horn", "in_reply_to": "<20050106051438.OTDP27771.fed1rmmtao08.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 1/5/05 11:14 PM, aramini1 at cox.net at aramini1 at cox.net wrote:\nThen, the quest to find Silk actually ENDS when Horn gives his (ok, Silk's)\neye to Pig, allowing Silver Silk, who is a download of Silk from the mainframe\ninto Pig, to re-enter the body of Silk by escaping Pig's eye , creating\nSilk+Horn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I won't rehearse my disagreement with the \"PigSilkHorn\" scenario again, but\nI did want to mention something that I just noticed (if this has been noted\nalready, I apologize). When precisely is \"Silver Silk\" downloaded into\n\"Horn\"? Twice, in the scene in Pig's hospital room, it is stated that Horn\nlooks into a glass (371-2), and I've seen it suggested that it is at one of\nthese moments. But this won't work, for two reasons. First, both these times\nare before the bandage has been removed from Pig's eye, so Silk cannot have\nleft Pig yet. Second, Silk is still present in Pig during Pig's last\nconversation with Horn (374). If Silk's soul does go from Pig to Horn, it\nmust be offstage, in the gap on the page between the last reported words\nspoken by \"Pig\" and Hari Mau speaking to Horn in the lander." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silver Silk, who was never the real Silk, takes up the\ntale of Horn and his death at the beginning of In Green's Jungles, but denies\nthat he is Silk until he is forced into it, so that in the text, Silk admits\nthat he is in fact Silk at about the same place that Silver Silk is freed from\nPig and placed in Silk's body." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But neither of these passages were written by Silkhorn; the juxtaposition of\nthe two is the editors' work.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050107062029.XVJK2638.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "aramini1 at cox.net", "address": "aramini1 at cox.net" }, "date": "2005-01-06T22:20:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Witch spirit and Tales of Silk and Horn", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam said: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But neither of these passages were written by Silkhorn; the juxtaposition of\nthe two is the editors' work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My point was that Wolfe has consciously constructed the book in such a fashion - not Silkhorn. \n\nMarc" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f761737050107093172987a27@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-07T09:31:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Witch spirit and Tales of Silk and Horn", "in_reply_to": "<20050107062029.XVJK2638.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should like to point out that the downloading of \"Silver Silk\" into \nthe Narrator remains speculative. There are several explanations \n(not all mutually exculsive) of how the Narrator comes to realize \nthat he is Silk and what, precisely, it means. Furthermroe, there is, \nso far as I know, no direct or usefully indirect textual evidence to \nsuggest that the SSilk persona is \"reloaded\" into the Narrator at\n_any_ point. \n\nFor those who hold that SilverSilk is downloaded into the \nNarrator,I suggest it would be worth spending a bit of effort\nfinding support for the theory before elaborating its details more.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 1:20:29 -0500, aramini1 at cox.net wrote:\nAdam said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But neither of these passages were written by Silkhorn; the juxtaposition of\nthe two is the editors' work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My point was that Wolfe has consciously constructed the book in such a fashion - not Silkhorn.\n\nMarc\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001701c4f4f3$335204e0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-07T11:58:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Witch spirit and Tales of Silk and Horn", "in_reply_to": "<1f761737050107093172987a27@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I should like to point out that the downloading of \"Silver Silk\" into\nthe Narrator remains speculative.\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought of another reason why this is probably not possible. Scylla\nremains trapped in Oreb all that time. If she could have transferred out\neye-to-eye, would she have stayed there?\n\nAnyway, I thought Silver Silk wanted out of Pig so he could rejoin Kypris.\nThat's what he told the Narrator. For him to jump into Silk's body and take\na ride to Blue strikes me as the opposite of what he would have done. I\nwould think that if he entered Silk, he would immediately go to a Window and\nescape.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<28780744.1105226190789.JavaMail.root@grover.psp.pas.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "harlekin at earthlink.net", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-08T15:16:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Witch spirit and Tales of Silk and Horn", "in_reply_to": "<001701c4f4f3$335204e0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----Original Message-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSent: Jan 7, 2005 12:58 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: Re: (urth) Witch spirit and Tales of Silk and Horn\nI should like to point out that the downloading of \"Silver Silk\" into\nthe Narrator remains speculative.\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought of another reason why this is probably not possible. Scylla\nremains trapped in Oreb all that time. If she could have transferred out\neye-to-eye, would she have stayed there?\n\n\nIf the transfer happened, it was probably eye to whatchamacallit (oh yeah, sacred window) and then window to new eye. Scylla was hiding in Oreb, then when he left the whorl, she was stuck.\n\nDon" } ] } ] }