{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4293", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4293, "subject": "ending and other stuff WK", "messages": 29, "voices": 10, "first": "2005-01-05T21:38:51+00:00", "last": "2005-01-11T13:49:04+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20050106053847.VKLN23615.fed1rmmtao04.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "aramini1 at cox.net", "address": "aramini1 at cox.net" }, "date": "2005-01-05T21:38:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I only have about 36 more messages to read before I'm caught up, so forgive me if someone has said this.\n\nIt seemed pretty clear to me at the end of the Wizard Knight that Able is going back to the missing years of his childhood with Desiri, the part between leaving the log cabin and showing up on the island where he planted the spiny orange. (The years when he would have grown up to be the man he was acelerated into) \n\nThe Wizard EXPLICITLY states that Able watches himself plant the spiny orange during his time in Skai, and Michael also explicitly states Able was the only person on the island when the knight appears - this means that Able has, in some fashion, been freed from the passage of time.\n\nAble is going back to his childhood at the end, the lost time that was taken from him. The great lord whose service will be required is Arnthnor, and Able will go on to forget everything that happened. The book is a big circle. But it isn't the first Wolfe book to work like that.\n\nMaybe someone said that - I'll see either tonight or tomorrow when I catch up. \n\nMarc\n\n(PS - Anyone notice Sir Marc in the last chapters? Throwing rocks at the throngs and starting the final battle?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20.3bb0ba5b.2f0e817e@aol.com>", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2005-01-06T03:56:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": "<20050106053847.VKLN23615.fed1rmmtao04.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a message dated 1/6/2005 12:39:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, \naramini1 at cox.net writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I only have about 36 more messages to read before I'm caught up, so forgive \nme if someone has said this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seemed pretty clear to me at the end of the Wizard Knight that Able is \ngoing back to the missing years of his childhood with Desiri, the part \nbetween \nleaving the log cabin and showing up on the island where he planted the \nspiny \norange. (The years when he would have grown up to be the man he was \nacelerated into) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Wizard EXPLICITLY states that Able watches himself plant the spiny \norange during his time in Skai, and Michael also explicitly states Able was \nthe only person on the island when the knight appears - this means that \nAble has, in some fashion, been freed from the passage of time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Watching himself plant the spiny orange was one of those things he did during\nhis missing 20 years in Skai. Here we are (it's really difficult to find \nthings in \nthis book, although not as difficult as in Peace). Page 56.\n\n\"We went to the spring Mimir,\" I said at last. \"I drank its water and \nremembered \nyou and Gylf, and a lot of other things. I visited myself, watching myself \ndrink\nwater in the ruins of Bluestone Castle. Afterward the Valfather laid his \ncondition\non me. ...\"\n\nPresumably, respecting time is part of the condition the Valfather has laid \non him.\nAlthough, even when he broke the condition, he still wasn't able to go back \nin time \nand save those people who had died, so even time travel has its limitations \nin \nMythgarthr." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Able is going back to his childhood at the end, the lost time that was \ntaken from \nhim. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But he remembers his missing years after delivering his message to Arnthor, \nso \nthey're not lost to him in the end. Page 404.\n\n I shook my head. \"We played together as children, Uri. Disiri and me. I \nremember now.\"\n Her voice was tender. \"Do you, Lord?\" \n \"I do.\" Until that moment I had not known I remembered. \"I thought they \nwiped those memories away, but they only hid them under the message. ...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The great lord whose service will be required is Arnthnor, and Able will go \non to forget everything that happened. The book is a big circle. But it \nisn't the \nfirst Wolfe book to work like that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see any evidence for this, and I don't like the idea at all. WK \nseems to me\nto be a coming-of-age book, where Able learns stuff and grows up. You don't \nmake\nbig circles out of coming-of-age books -- it defeats their whole purpose. \n(OK, in\nsome sense, Fifth Head of Cerberus is an exception to this. But my point \nstill\nstands.) \n\nThe idea (that somebody proposed here) that Able's going back to America to \nserve the Most High God -- and I sure hope the great lord in need of a knight \nis \nthe Most High God and not the American President -- I find much more \nconvincing. \n\n-- Stone Ox (Peter)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<006a01c4f3e8$c95bdee0$82416596@crunchynut>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2005-01-06T04:11:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": "<20.3bb0ba5b.2f0e817e@aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stone Ox writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The idea (that somebody proposed here) that Able's going back to America \nto\nserve the Most High God -- and I sure hope the great lord in need of a \nknight\nis\nthe Most High God and not the American President -- I find much more\nconvincing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One reason I don't like this: if he's going back to America, surely he can \nmeet Ben in person, rather than send him a huge letter?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002701c4f40e$4332d1e0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-06T08:39:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": "<20.3bb0ba5b.2f0e817e@aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The idea (that somebody proposed here) that Able's going back to America to\nserve the Most High God -- and I sure hope the great lord in need of a\nknight\nis the Most High God and not the American President -- I find much more\nconvincing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that's not exactly what I said, but then I like the idea that Able\nwill return to America in \"knight's service\" to the Most High God. But that\nis a whole extra level above Kleos, and Able must first succeed in his\nmission there.\n\nIncidentally, for reference sake, here is the instance in Able's dream in\nMythgarthr where he sees an ambulance taking him (to a hospital? a\nmorgue?).\n\n\"Beyond the black pavilion was a highway. Cars, trucks, SUVs, and minvans -- \nall sorts of vehicles -- were traveling on it, going so fast that it seemed\ncertain they would crash. There was a school bus, a red hook-and-ladder, a\nblack-and-white police car, and a white ambulance. Those stand out even now.\nThe ambulance rocked from side to side as it tore along with its light bar\nblazing and its siren screaming. I climbed down and went to the highway. The\ndrivers would not stop for me, and I shouted at their cars, thinking how far\nthe ambulance was getting ahead of me. Able -- the real Able -- was in that\nambulance. I knew that, and I wanted to help him.\"\n-- \"The Wizard\" pg 459" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050106164948.63605.qmail@web20023.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-06T08:49:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": "<002701c4f40e$4332d1e0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure, in the context of the WK universe, that\nAmerica is above Kleos. I seem to recall a place\nwhere Able muses that it is located sort of sideways\nto Mythgarthr. Of course, he might very well be wrong\nabout that!\n\nOne thing I kept thinking throughout was that Gene\nWolfe was the Most High God, as is every author in\nterms of his/her fictional creations. But I got the\nfeeling that Wolfe was setting up an analogy between\nhis creations and God's -- that we are fictional\ncharacters in the mind of God who may, through our\nactions, take on a reality we might not otherwise\npossess. I wonder if Able, at the end of the novel,\nis not being taken by Michael to Able's America but,\nrather, to ours . . . That just as, in the Catholic\nfaith, virtuous souls receive the reward of rising to\na realer existence, in Heaven, so, too, does Able rise\n(with Disiri)to an incarnation outside the pages of\nthe novel.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:\nThe idea (that somebody proposed here) that Able's\ngoing back to America to\nserve the Most High God -- and I sure hope the\ngreat lord in need of a\nknight\nis the Most High God and not the American President\n-- I find much more\nconvincing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, that's not exactly what I said, but then I\nlike the idea that Able\nwill return to America in \"knight's service\" to the\nMost High God. But that\nis a whole extra level above Kleos, and Able must\nfirst succeed in his\nmission there.\n\nIncidentally, for reference sake, here is the\ninstance in Able's dream in\nMythgarthr where he sees an ambulance taking him (to\na hospital? a\nmorgue?).\n\n\"Beyond the black pavilion was a highway. Cars,\ntrucks, SUVs, and minvans -- \nall sorts of vehicles -- were traveling on it, going\nso fast that it seemed\ncertain they would crash. There was a school bus, a\nred hook-and-ladder, a\nblack-and-white police car, and a white ambulance.\nThose stand out even now.\nThe ambulance rocked from side to side as it tore\nalong with its light bar\nblazing and its siren screaming. I climbed down and\nwent to the highway. The\ndrivers would not stop for me, and I shouted at\ntheir cars, thinking how far\nthe ambulance was getting ahead of me. Able -- the\nreal Able -- was in that\nambulance. I knew that, and I wanted to help him.\"\n-- \"The Wizard\" pg 459\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003c01c4f411$d8d86c20$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-06T09:04:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": "<20050106164948.63605.qmail@web20023.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure, in the context of the WK universe, that\nAmerica is above Kleos. I seem to recall a place\nwhere Able muses that it is located sort of sideways\nto Mythgarthr. Of course, he might very well be wrong\nabout that!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't recall this, can anyone think of where this may have been said?\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370501060929719c85b5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-06T09:30:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": "<003c01c4f411$d8d86c20$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Crush quote-and-wrote:\nI'm not sure, in the context of the WK universe, that\nAmerica is above Kleos. I seem to recall a place\nwhere Able muses that it is located sort of sideways\nto Mythgarthr. Of course, he might very well be wrong\nabout that!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't recall this, can anyone think of where this may have been said?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where, no, but I do recall it also.\n\nI think though that the point is not that America is above Kleos, but that\nthe MHG is - so that in his \"evolution\" upward, Able has to complete his\nservice to Kleos before he can serve the MHG directly, whether in the\nMythgarthr-system or in America." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nFreedom has no barcode.\n --J.G. Ballard" } ] }, { "message_id": "<010301c4f418$bdffd8f0$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2005-01-06T09:54:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": "<003c01c4f411$d8d86c20$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure, in the context of the WK universe, that\nAmerica is above Kleos. I seem to recall a place\nwhere Able muses that it is located sort of sideways\nto Mythgarthr. Of course, he might very well be wrong\nabout that!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't recall this, can anyone think of where this may have been said?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't recall that statement specifically, but there is a passage where\nAble says that all the levels of the WK universe from Mythgarthr on up have\nmultiple \"places\" or \"worlds\" in them. I believe the context is the\ndiscussion of how each level is infinite but ten times smaller than the\nlevel above it, and how the \"place\" where the Giants of Winter and Old Night\nlive is part of Skai but different from where the Valfather lives. He also\nstates that Aelfrice and the levels below it only have one \"place\" in them,\nif I recall correctly.\n\nAmerica could be another \"place\" sideways from Mythgarthr.\n\n-- Dave, aka Vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004301c4f419$1b188cd0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-06T09:56:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK and Other Gods", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370501060929719c85b5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not sure, in the context of the WK universe, that\nAmerica is above Kleos. I seem to recall a place\nwhere Able muses that it is located sort of sideways\nto Mythgarthr. Of course, he might very well be wrong\nabout that!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't recall this, can anyone think of where this may have been said?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where, no, but I do recall it also.\n\nI think though that the point is not that America is above Kleos, but that\nthe MHG is - so that in his \"evolution\" upward, Able has to complete his\nservice to Kleos before he can serve the MHG directly, whether in the\nMythgarthr-system or in America." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. The idea that America is above Kleos is not intended.\n\n(I didnt' realize, until Dan'l posted this, that this concept was being\nconveyed in saying that Able would wake up when he finally came face-to-face\nwith the Most High God.)\n\nHowever, this fact did not prevent me, when Able visited the MLG, from\nimagining doctors around Arthur Ormsby going crazy shouting \"We losing\nhim!!\"\n\nSpeaking of the MHG and the MLG, these designations suggest that there might\nbe a Middle Most God in Mythgarthr and god in every other level as well.\nThe god of Skai, I presume, would be Valfather. I imagine the god of Kleos\nwould not be Michael since he's being punished (I would guess) by that god\nvia his quest. Maybe it is Parka (btw as I write this I remember that the\nFates were beyond the command of Jupiter, Zeus, and Odin -- although the\nNorns only spoke to Odin).\n\nKulilli seems to be the god of Aelfrice and Garsecg/Setr is a usurper.\n\nWho is the god of Mythgarther? Not Able...he doesn't seem specially\nconnected to a particular level. Arnthor? Well, Able is sent with a message\nto him, but I thought he was also seen as more of a usurper considering his\nheritage from the second to lowest level. How about Bold Berthold?\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<011f01c4f421$c84ffd40$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2005-01-06T10:59:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK and Other Gods", "in_reply_to": "<004301c4f419$1b188cd0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who is the god of Mythgarther? Not Able...he doesn't seem specially\nconnected to a particular level. Arnthor?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The whole point of the message Able carries is to enable the Aelf to ask\nArnthor, the god of Mythgarthr, to be a better god." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How about Bold Berthold?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given Able's vision of Bold Berthold killing the new King of the Giants,\nperhaps he _will_ be the new god, as you suggest. Of course, there is room\nfor worship of multiple gods; Toug is Baki's god, after all.\n\n-- Dave, aka Vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Rolsky", "address": "autarch at urth.org" }, "date": "2005-01-06T11:16:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK and Other Gods", "in_reply_to": "<011f01c4f421$c84ffd40$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 6 Jan 2005, David Lebling wrote:\nCrush asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who is the god of Mythgarther? Not Able...he doesn't seem specially\nconnected to a particular level. Arnthor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The whole point of the message Able carries is to enable the Aelf to ask\nArnthor, the god of Mythgarthr, to be a better god." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a terribly confusing phrasing. Arnthor is not the god _of_ (over) \nMythgarthr, he's a god of Aelfrice who lives _in_ Mythgarthr. I think the \ngod of Mythgarthr is the Valfather, clearly, though he's just one of many.\n\nKulilli may be another god of Aelfrice, as James Wynn suggested, although \nit's not clear to me if she is _of_ Aelfrice or Mythgarthr. I think it'd \nhave to be the latter for her to be a god of Aelfrice.\n\n\n-dave\n\n/*===========================\nVegGuide.Org\nYour guide to all that's veg.\n===========================*/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Rolsky", "address": "autarch at urth.org" }, "date": "2005-01-06T11:17:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": "<010301c4f418$bdffd8f0$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 6 Jan 2005, David Lebling wrote:\nmultiple \"places\" or \"worlds\" in them. I believe the context is the\ndiscussion of how each level is infinite but ten times smaller than the\nlevel above it, and how the \"place\" where the Giants of Winter and Old Night" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anyone else think of John Crowley's Little, Big when they came to this \npart?\n\n\n-dave\n\n/*===========================\nVegGuide.Org\nYour guide to all that's veg.\n===========================*/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050106192541.51635.qmail@web20027.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-06T11:25:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK and Other Gods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems that there can be multiple gods on every\nlevel except the highest and the lowest. I find \nWolfe's scheme confusing, I must admit. Kulilli is\nthe original inhabitant of Aelfrice. Why isn't she\nworshipped by the dragons of Muspel? Nor does it seem\nthat the Most Low God worships the dragons. And\nthough the Angrborne live on Mythgarthr, they are not\nworshipped by the Aelf. I wonder if descent from Angr\nhas anything to do with who is and isn't a proper\nobject of worship.\n\nP\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dave Rolsky wrote:\nOn Thu, 6 Jan 2005, David Lebling wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Crush asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Who is the god of Mythgarther? Not Able...he\ndoesn't seem specially\nconnected to a particular level. Arnthor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The whole point of the message Able carries is to\nenable the Aelf to ask\nArnthor, the god of Mythgarthr, to be a better\ngod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a terribly confusing phrasing. Arnthor is\nnot the god _of_ (over) \nMythgarthr, he's a god of Aelfrice who lives _in_\nMythgarthr. I think the \ngod of Mythgarthr is the Valfather, clearly, though\nhe's just one of many.\n\nKulilli may be another god of Aelfrice, as James\nWynn suggested, although \nit's not clear to me if she is _of_ Aelfrice or\nMythgarthr. I think it'd \nhave to be the latter for her to be a god of\nAelfrice.\n\n\n-dave\n\n/*===========================\nVegGuide.Org\nYour guide to all that's veg.\n===========================*/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<013201c4f429$ab3329f0$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2005-01-06T11:55:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gods", "in_reply_to": "<20050106192541.51635.qmail@web20027.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "stilskin said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems that there can be multiple gods on every\nlevel except the highest and the lowest. I find\nWolfe's scheme confusing, I must admit. Kulilli is\nthe original inhabitant of Aelfrice. Why isn't she\nworshipped by the dragons of Muspel? Nor does it seem\nthat the Most Low God worships the dragons. And\nthough the Angrborne live on Mythgarthr, they are not\nworshipped by the Aelf. I wonder if descent from Angr\nhas anything to do with who is and isn't a proper\nobject of worship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think a more important component of who is worshipped and by whom is the\nlevel on which they live. As you go lower in level, the inhabitants are less\nlikely to be moral beings, though Able admits there is a range on each level\n(from the Valfather to Lothur in Skai, for example, not to mention the\nGiants of Skai). The less moral, the less likely to worship the proper god\nfor your level.\n\nGiven that Kulili created the Aelf, their position is somewhat unusual. I\ncan imagine several reasons why they wouldn't worship the Angrborn,\nincluding the Aelf's apparent desire to conceal their true natures by\nmimicking humans, which indicates they are ashamed of being created from\nleftovers and thus would disdain worship of other beings so created.\n\nThe dragons of Muspel would be extremely unlikely to worship the god\nappropriate for them, and in fact attempt to displace the gods/rulers of the\nnext two higher levels. The Most Low God worships himself and states that he\nis also the Most High God.\n\nWe know little of Kleos, but obviously they are patterned on angels and all\nfaithfully worship the Most High God. Those that did not were expelled, if\nthe mythology parallels Christianity, as it does in most instances.\n\n-- Dave, aka Vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-06T12:39:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave Rolsky writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyone else think of John Crowley's Little, Big when they came to this \npart?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a parallel derivation, not a sequential one. LITTLE, BIG gets its \ncosmology through the Victorian legend of Fairies, which is derived from the \ndiminished Shakespearian version. THE WIZARD KNIGHT tries with some \nsuccess to synthesise far older streams - Celtic myth, Gnosticism, Nordic \nlegend (overwhelminglky important) and of course CS Lewis and Tolkien." } ] }, { "message_id": "<006a01c4f430$6ca8b5e0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-06T12:43:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gods", "in_reply_to": "<013201c4f429$ab3329f0$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm convinced. I think I agree that in this world, all creatures are 'gods'\nof somebody and only the MHG and the MLG are distinguished." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Most Low God worships himself and states that he" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but the MLG is a liar. He says that if one could see his back he would\nsee the MHG (like some kind of bizarre Janus), but Able sees his back and it\nis only worms and filth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We know little of Kleos, but obviously they are patterned on angels and all\nfaithfully worship the Most High God. Those that did not were expelled, if\nthe mythology parallels Christianity, as it does in most instances." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Kulilli and Parka don't look like angels...albeit I suppose it is\npossible they might look different at different times.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<013e01c4f432$a5ca57a0$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2005-01-06T12:59:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gods", "in_reply_to": "<006a01c4f430$6ca8b5e0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush replied:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Most Low God worships himself and states that he" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but the MLG is a liar. He says that if one could see his back he\nwould\nsee the MHG (like some kind of bizarre Janus), but Able sees his back and\nit\nis only worms and filth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Precisely my point. The MLG is so morally deficient that he cannot find a\nbetter object of worship than himself, and either out of delusion believes\n(or out of mendacity claims) to be the MHG.\n\n-- Dave" } ] }, { "message_id": "<008d01c4f442$c533ed30$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-06T14:55:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": "<010301c4f418$bdffd8f0$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "there is a passage where\nAble says that all the levels of the WK universe from Mythgarthr on up have\nmultiple \"places\" or \"worlds\" in them. I believe the context is the\ndiscussion of how each level is infinite but ten times smaller than the\nlevel above it, and how the \"place\" where the Giants of Winter and Old\nNight\nlive is part of Skai but different from where the Valfather lives. He also\nstates that Aelfrice and the levels below it only have one \"place\" in them,\nif I recall correctly.\n\nAmerica could be another \"place\" sideways from Mythgarthr." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The definitions of \"multiple places\" I took to mean that there were other\nplanets in the universe of Mythgarthr. It is not explained what the separate\nregion of the Frost Giants is in Skai...whether another planet or some\ntotally different concept. But if we assume it is somehow analogous to the\nseparate worlds in Mythgarthr then Mythgarthr's worlds should be\ntheoretically navigatable *within* Mythgarthr as well.\n\nIn Aefrice and below I understood that the sky of Alfrice decended\n(infinitely) to the sea of Aelfrice like a dome (as ancient people\nunderstood the cosmos to do). The same would be true for the lower levels.\nSo there would be no place in the lower levels for other \"planets\".\n\nIt never occurred to me that America could be one of the other \"worlds\" on\nthe level of Mythgarthr ala \"parallel dimensions\" (rather \"worlds\" meaning\n\"planets\") but that would make sense too. It would additionally explain why\nour world is so much like Mythgarthr.\n\nI wonder if Wolfe ever thought it out this far?\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-07T03:00:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": "<008d01c4f442$c533ed30$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The definitions of \"multiple places\" I took to mean that there were other\nplanets in the universe of Mythgarthr. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n\nOne of the \"places\" Abel visits (with Toug) is Dream, which I assume is a \ndream-share realm of some sort. This seems more like a matter of alternate \nmodes of consciousness than other planets: but this of course does not rule \nout America as being such a \"place2." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050107122131.69688.qmail@web20021.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-07T04:21:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the Room of Lost Loves has to be fit into this\nsomewhere as well.\n\nHas anyone identified Abel's father?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\nJames Wynn writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The definitions of \"multiple places\" I took to\nmean that there were other\nplanets in the universe of Mythgarthr. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\n\nOne of the \"places\" Abel visits (with Toug) is\nDream, which I assume is a \ndream-share realm of some sort. This seems more\nlike a matter of alternate \nmodes of consciousness than other planets: but this\nof course does not rule \nout America as being such a \"place2.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-07T05:24:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": "<20050107122131.69688.qmail@web20021.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "stilskin writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And the Room of Lost Loves has to be fit into this\nsomewhere as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've only read the Wizard Knight once: starting to reread now. Where is \nthat mentioned?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050107133056.96416.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-07T05:30:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ending and other stuff WK", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I might be misnaming it -- but it's the room in\nGilling's castle that Abel, Mani, and Lynnet enter,\nwith the permission of Thiazi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\nstilskin writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And the Room of Lost Loves has to be fit into this\nsomewhere as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've only read the Wizard Knight once: starting to\nreread now. Where is \nthat mentioned?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002801c4f4c3$2703d860$7c416596@crunchynut>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2005-01-07T06:14:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dreaming, Mag, Able and Art", "in_reply_to": "<20050107122131.69688.qmail@web20021.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Dream is a shared realm, as Crush says. I think it is the key to Mag \nand Able/Art.\n\nFirst of all my understanding of Able/Art: they have been swapped, in some \nway, by the Aelf. The original, \"real\" Able goes to America; Art takes \nAble's place in Mythgathr. I think this is very clear: when Art dreams of \nthe ambulance, he knows in his dream that it carries the \"real Able\".\n\nMythgathr and Earth are connected though Dream. Art dreams of Able in \nAmerica on several occasions. Dream exists on the same plane as Mythgathr, \nand must be connected to Aelfrice as well.\n\nThe Aelf have power over dreams. Baki (can't remember) bring dreams to both \nIdnn and Art. From this we can guess how the Art/Able swap happened. Art \ndreamed in the Downs and the Aelf enticed his dream-self down to Aelfrice. \nAble dreamt and had his dream-self sent back to Art's body on Earth via \nDream. Art's dream-self replaced Able's in Able's body, which was later sent \nback to Myth via Parka's cave.\n\nAs to why the Aelf did this: I speculated earlier that the Aelf wanted an \nAmerican, rather than a local, as their messenger.\n\nAs to why Able/Art: because they have the same mother, presumably \nfacilitating the swap. We have to assume that Mag and Art's mother are in \nsome sense the same person; not least because Art says he thinks Mag was \nboth the mother of Berthold and Able, and of himself and Ben (p236).\n\nBut the situation is not straightforward. Mag recognizes that Art is not \nactually her son Able. Able seems to recognize that Mag is not actually his \nmother. She seems to have no memory of Art as such, but she does appear to \nremember her \"girlhood in America\" (p335). Although her message in the green \nglass tube opens thus: \"Mag is my name *here*\" (p236), implying that she has \nanother name elsewhere (ie America), we cannot assume that she has simply \ntravelled from America to Mythgarthr.\n\nI think the solution to this conundrum might be suggested by what happens to \nEscan: he leaves behind in Aelfrice a copy of himself (p424). I think the \nAmerican-Mag dreamed of Aelfrice as a child and left a copy of herself \nthere, which continued on as Myth-Mag, the eventual mother of Berthold and \nAble, while her original dream-self returned to America, to marry and bear \nBen and Art.\n\nI think we know that Art's mother did dream of Aelfrice. Writing of his \ndescent to Aelfrice in search of Toug he says, \"How far to the dream my \nmother had?\" (p314)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-07T06:24:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Room of Lost Loves", "in_reply_to": "<20050107133056.96416.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "stilskin writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I might be misnaming it -- but it's the room in\nGilling's castle that Abel, Mani, and Lynnet enter,\nwith the permission of Thiazi." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm moved to remember Abel's description of Lady Freya's house. \"You're \nforever finding something new there, and it's always something good. Secret \nstairs leading to rooms full of books, and instruments you've never seen \nanyplace else, or windows with beautiful views you never knew were there\". \nRivendell, The High House, and a touch of Libraryspace? I expect they all \nlink up." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-07T06:26:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The cat Lady", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://library.flawlesslogic.com/freya.jpg " } ] }, { "message_id": "<002a01c4f63b$23dd3720$95406596@crunchynut>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2005-01-09T03:05:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Dreaming, Mag, Able and Art", "in_reply_to": "<002801c4f4c3$2703d860$7c416596@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Further on Dream, Art & Able ... It seems that you one way you know you're \nin Dream is if\nyou see the the Valfather's \"castle like a star\" flying through the clouds.\nToug watches it in Dream (p56), as does Art at the start of Knight, on the \nhillside as he is surely dreaming.\nElsewhere in Knight, Art dreams he is Able dreaming on a hillside (surely \nthe same one) as the\ncastle scuds through the clouds, remembering how he used to live in a place\nwhere there were swords and no cars (p133). I think all this supports the\nidea of Art & Able having being swapped, by the Aelf, via Dream.\n\n(Though come to think of it, I guess the swap could have been engineered by \nthe Overcyn, given the presence of the Valfather's castle ...)\n\nAs a bonus, in the Dream chapter in Wizard, there's a gratuitous-seeming\nlittle passage where Art tells Toug that any horse ridden by an Aelf \"will\nbe one of ours, a horse taken by the Aelf as a man or woman may be.\" Or\nindeed as Able, Art & Toug all have been at one time or another.\n\nToug is in some ways the most interesting character in the series. Art \nidentifies with him to a certain extent. In the Dream chapter, he more or \nless appoints Toug as his prime agent. I can't remember who or where, but \none of the characters says that Art sees himself in Toug. Toug is a key \npiece in the game played by various parties in the first half of the book to \nsecure Art's services for their own ends; they recognize Toug's influence \nover Art.\n\nI don't think that Toug and Art have any direct physical or psychic \nrelationship with each other, but I do think Art sees him as a kindred \nspirit. More than that, I think Toug is a kind of stand-in for the real \nAble, now in America.\n\nOne of the things that surprised me about Wizard was that we hear little \nabout Able. I think we get Toug instead: an exceptionally brave peasant kid \nfrom the same area as Able, also taken by the Aelf & also delivered into a \nstrange and dangerous world ... Toug fights against great odds, is wounded, \nfights on & is further wounded. I think we have to assume the same for Able \nin America; we hear of him in America via Art's dreams mainly when he is \nhospital after fighting hijackers, in an ambulance and so on.\n\nToug, unlike Art, is not a figure of destiny; no god-like beings have \nmoulded him for great tasks and he doesn't have \"supernatural\" powers. I \nthink the same would be true of Able in America, and though we don't know \nthe details I feel sure his experiences there parallel Toug's." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050109213853.3471.qmail@web20023.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-09T13:38:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Dreaming, Mag, Able and Art", "in_reply_to": "<002a01c4f63b$23dd3720$95406596@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're onto something about Toug. Why do you\nthink he fades from the ms. toward the end? Is it\nsimply the return of Able to center stage?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andrew Bollen wrote:\nFurther on Dream, Art & Able ... It seems that you\none way you know you're \nin Dream is if\nyou see the the Valfather's \"castle like a star\"\nflying through the clouds.\nToug watches it in Dream (p56), as does Art at the\nstart of Knight, on the \nhillside as he is surely dreaming.\nElsewhere in Knight, Art dreams he is Able dreaming\non a hillside (surely \nthe same one) as the\ncastle scuds through the clouds, remembering how he\nused to live in a place\nwhere there were swords and no cars (p133). I think\nall this supports the\nidea of Art & Able having being swapped, by the\nAelf, via Dream.\n\n(Though come to think of it, I guess the swap could\nhave been engineered by \nthe Overcyn, given the presence of the Valfather's\ncastle ...)\n\nAs a bonus, in the Dream chapter in Wizard, there's\na gratuitous-seeming\nlittle passage where Art tells Toug that any horse\nridden by an Aelf \"will\nbe one of ours, a horse taken by the Aelf as a man\nor woman may be.\" Or\nindeed as Able, Art & Toug all have been at one time\nor another.\n\nToug is in some ways the most interesting character\nin the series. Art \nidentifies with him to a certain extent. In the\nDream chapter, he more or \nless appoints Toug as his prime agent. I can't\nremember who or where, but \none of the characters says that Art sees himself in\nToug. Toug is a key \npiece in the game played by various parties in the\nfirst half of the book to \nsecure Art's services for their own ends; they\nrecognize Toug's influence \nover Art.\n\nI don't think that Toug and Art have any direct\nphysical or psychic \nrelationship with each other, but I do think Art\nsees him as a kindred \nspirit. More than that, I think Toug is a kind of\nstand-in for the real \nAble, now in America.\n\nOne of the things that surprised me about Wizard was\nthat we hear little \nabout Able. I think we get Toug instead: an\nexceptionally brave peasant kid \nfrom the same area as Able, also taken by the Aelf &\nalso delivered into a \nstrange and dangerous world ... Toug fights against\ngreat odds, is wounded, \nfights on & is further wounded. I think we have to\nassume the same for Able \nin America; we hear of him in America via Art's\ndreams mainly when he is \nhospital after fighting hijackers, in an ambulance\nand so on.\n\nToug, unlike Art, is not a figure of destiny; no\ngod-like beings have \nmoulded him for great tasks and he doesn't have\n\"supernatural\" powers. I \nthink the same would be true of Able in America, and\nthough we don't know \nthe details I feel sure his experiences there\nparallel Toug's.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001701c4f7d5$4be4b130$e0416596@crunchynut>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2005-01-11T04:01:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why Berthold looks like Ben", "in_reply_to": "<002a01c4f63b$23dd3720$95406596@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the end of Wizard, when Art is wearing his magic helm. I think that \npreviously, Berthold would have looked like Berthold, helm or no. Art wears \nthe helm a lot and Berthold is around, in all of the fighting leading up to \nthis; and the appearance of Ben in place of Berthold after the River Battle \nis obviously a surprise.\n\nThe big change is Art's healing of Bert, in which \"it took a lot to restore \nthe thing he had left in a pond, so long ago.\" We know that Art doesn't have \nthe power to restore the dead. I think the point here is that the \"thing\" \nwhich Ben lost in the pond is indeed dead. To restore him, Able has had to \nreplace it with something taken from or copied from (a memory of?) Ben, \nthough it seems that Art himself doesn't realize this. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Seth Lombardi", "address": "sethlombardi at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-11T13:49:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why Berthold looks like Ben", "in_reply_to": "<001701c4f7d5$4be4b130$e0416596@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the end of Wizard, when Art is wearing his magic helm. I think that \npreviously, Berthold would have looked like Berthold, helm or no. Art wears \nthe helm a lot and Berthold is around, in all of the fighting leading up to \nthis; and the appearance of Ben in place of Berthold after the River Battle \nis obviously a surprise.\n\nThe big change is Art's healing of Bert, in which \"it took a lot to restore \nthe thing he had left in a pond, so long ago.\" We know that Art doesn't \nhave the power to restore the dead. I think the point here is that the \n\"thing\" which Ben lost in the pond is indeed dead. To restore him, Able has \nhad to replace it with something taken from or copied from (a memory of?) \nBen, though it seems that Art himself doesn't realize this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I felt it was something along the lives of: the inhabitants of Mythgrather \nand America do more than just live prallel lives, but in fact share a soul, \nand that the differences between the two places were just different points \nof view on the same conflict, or state of being. Thus being a big reveal at \nthe end of the book, it's an attmpt to give the work an extra bit of \nrelevance or emphasis or emotional punch.\n\nseth\n\n*****************************\nSeth Lombardi\nsethlombardi at hotmail.com\nsethopopotropolis: http://pages.prodigy.net/nlom/blogg.html\nAIM: melombardi\n\"Two faces are alike; neither is funny by itself, but side by side their \nlikeness makes us laugh\" -Pascal" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }