{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4295", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4295, "subject": "silver glass", "messages": 34, "voices": 11, "first": "2005-01-10T18:47:55+00:00", "last": "2005-01-17T09:43:01+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20050111024752.WBUI21886.fed1rmmtao07.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "aramini1 at cox.net", "address": "aramini1 at cox.net" }, "date": "2005-01-10T18:47:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm - here is my attempt to provide textual evidence. This is chapter 18 of Return to the whorl, the first couple of pages (I have the SFBC edition with me, so the page numbers are off).\n\nThey fix Pigs eye. \"The room had darkened as he spoke, the lights on the ceiling fading to mere specks of gold; he looked at the glass and saw the nurse manipulating a control.\"\n\nAfter the first break in the chapter:\n\"When the nurses glass had faded to silver-gray, Pig ventured, \"Yer gang ter stay wit'me, bucky?\"\"\n\nAnd then, later: \"Something in Pig's face had changed. He said, \"And in the third, Horn?'\n'Patera!' \nOreb whistled shrilly.\n'I would be a positive danger to you,' Pig said. 'Strength and a stout heart are hazardous qualities where they cannot prevail.'\n'Yes.' He wiped his eyes.\nNaked and subtly altered, the face was still Pig's; Silk's well-remembered voice issued from its lips. 'Still, you would take me if you could.'\n'Yes. Yes. I would. If we reached New Viron, I would not have failed. Or even if you reached it alone.'\n'You do not wish to fail.' Pig's big hand tightened on his.\n\nHe said, 'I would give my life not to fail,' and meant it.\n'You already have.'\"\n\nThere is a monitor in the lander that blurs around the mouth, and calls the passenger Silk.\n\nSo here is my idea: Silver Silk in Pig, identified as Patera by Silk's Body, speaks to Horn in this passage and calls him Horn. He then realizes that Horn has given up his corporeal body to salvage Silk, and that Horn wants to take the Silk in Pig back with him. Would Silver Silk abandon the persona of Horn, or would he go back to Blue with him, after he realizes that \"[Horn] would take [Silk] if he could.\"\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f761737050110190458c4a9de@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-10T19:04:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "<20050111024752.WBUI21886.fed1rmmtao07.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, this is enough to make it plausible certainly. I am not convinced - partly\nbecause of the timing problems that have already been discussed, but those\ncan probably be overcome - but mostly because I don't think it fits very well\nfor Silk _not_ to have been present in the Narrator from the moment the Horn\npersona took over, for him to simply have vanished.\n\nBut I could easily be wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:47:50 -0500, aramini1 at cox.net wrote:\nHmmm - here is my attempt to provide textual evidence. This is chapter 18 of Return to the whorl, the first couple of pages (I have the SFBC edition with me, so the page numbers are off).\n\nThey fix Pigs eye. \"The room had darkened as he spoke, the lights on the ceiling fading to mere specks of gold; he looked at the glass and saw the nurse manipulating a control.\"\n\nAfter the first break in the chapter:\n\"When the nurses glass had faded to silver-gray, Pig ventured, \"Yer gang ter stay wit'me, bucky?\"\"\n\nAnd then, later: \"Something in Pig's face had changed. He said, \"And in the third, Horn?'\n'Patera!'\nOreb whistled shrilly.\n'I would be a positive danger to you,' Pig said. 'Strength and a stout heart are hazardous qualities where they cannot prevail.'\n'Yes.' He wiped his eyes.\nNaked and subtly altered, the face was still Pig's; Silk's well-remembered voice issued from its lips. 'Still, you would take me if you could.'\n'Yes. Yes. I would. If we reached New Viron, I would not have failed. Or even if you reached it alone.'\n'You do not wish to fail.' Pig's big hand tightened on his.\n\nHe said, 'I would give my life not to fail,' and meant it.\n'You already have.'\"\n\nThere is a monitor in the lander that blurs around the mouth, and calls the passenger Silk.\n\nSo here is my idea: Silver Silk in Pig, identified as Patera by Silk's Body, speaks to Horn in this passage and calls him Horn. He then realizes that Horn has given up his corporeal body to salvage Silk, and that Horn wants to take the Silk in Pig back with him. Would Silver Silk abandon the persona of Horn, or would he go back to Blue with him, after he realizes that \"[Horn] would take [Silk] if he could.\"\n\nMarc Aramini\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<008a01c4f7ee$1e2f4cf0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-11T06:59:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "<20050111024752.WBUI21886.fed1rmmtao07.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[The Narrator] said, 'I would give my life not to fail,' and meant it.\n'You already have.'\"\n\nSo here is my idea: Silver Silk in Pig, identified as Patera\nby Silk's Body, speaks to Horn in this passage and calls\nhim Horn. He then realizes that Horn has given up his\ncorporeal body to salvage Silk, and that Horn wants to\ntake the Silk in Pig back with him. Would Silver Silk\nabandon the persona of Horn, or would he go back to\nBlue with him, after he realizes that \"[Horn] would take\n[Silk] if he could.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note: I will refer to the protagonist of the Short Sun as \"the Narrator\"\neven though he is not the writer in this case.\n\nThis is textual support to be sure but I am still influenced by the \"Psyche\nvs Soul\" discussion we had recently. However...\n\nFirst of all, it seems that Silver Silk is saying he will not go. Secondly,\nit seems that Silver Silk recognized -- even though the Narrator did not -- \nthat Horn \"already had\" on all counts: He *had died* and he *had not\nfailed*. It is already determined (whether Silver Silk possesses the\nNarrator or not) that Horn will succeed in taking Silk to Blue. He will take\nSilk's body and all his memories (the Narrator makes several errors in\nmemory while on the Whorl that prove he still retains Silk's memories as\nwell as Horn's). Since his special powers of leadership are genetic, that\npart of Silk will be taken to Blue as well. Silver Silk is \"merely\" Silk's\npsyche and is no obvious improvement over the \"Silk psyche\" already present\nin the Narrator -- in fact, Silver Silk will lack the experience of running\nViron so he might not even be as good.\n\nSo Silk went to Blue as surely as Horn brought him back. Horn and Silk's\npsyche's are present in the Narrator (of course, I believe there is a third\nentity as well...a soul...and Silver Silk as a purely informational entity\ncannot fill that role).\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<203440AC.5CB17B26.0299E010@aol.com>", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2005-01-11T12:45:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "<008a01c4f7ee$1e2f4cf0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmmm - here is my attempt to provide textual \nevidence. This is chapter 18 of Return to \nthe whorl, the first couple of pages (I have \nthe SFBC edition with me, so the page numbers \nare off)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They fix Pigs eye. \"The room had darkened as \nhe spoke, the lights on the ceiling fading to \nmere specks of gold; he looked at the glass \nand saw the nurse manipulating a control.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After the first break in the chapter:\n\"When the nurses glass had faded to \nsilver-gray, Pig ventured, \"Yer gang ter \nstay wit'me, bucky?\"\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And then, later: \"Something in Pig's face had \nchanged. He said, \"And in the third, Horn?'\n'Patera!'\nOreb whistled shrilly.\n'I would be a positive danger to you,' Pig said. \n'Strength and a stout heart are hazardous \nqualities where they cannot prevail.'\n'Yes.' He wiped his eyes.\nNaked and subtly altered, the face was \nstill Pig's; Silk's well-remembered voice \nissued from its lips. 'Still, you would take \nme if you could.'\n'Yes. Yes. I would. If we reached New Viron, \nI would not have failed. Or even if you \nreached it alone.'\n'You do not wish to fail.' Pig's big hand \ntightened on his.\nHe said, 'I would give my life not to fail,' \nand meant it.\n'You already have.'\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a monitor in the lander that blurs \naround the mouth, and calls the passenger Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So here is my idea: Silver Silk in Pig, \nidentified as Patera by Silk's Body, speaks \nto Horn in this passage and calls him Horn. \nHe then realizes that Horn has given up his \ncorporeal body to salvage Silk, and that Horn \nwants to take the Silk in Pig back with him. \n Would Silver Silk abandon the persona of Horn,\nor would he go back to Blue with him, after he \nrealizes that \"[Horn] would take [Silk] if he \ncould.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pretty convincing. Especially when combined \nwith the fact that the neighbors said something\nto the effect (I don't have my copy here ... in\nfact, I believe I've given it away, so I may \nhave to buy another one to reread it with this\nrevelation in mind) that Horn was being put into\na man's body whose spirit was dying. So let me\nrecapitulate, and maybe change things around a\nlittle. So what you're saying is that when \nHorn reached the Whorl (in Silk's former body), \nSilk's was already dead. But a part of Silk's \npsyche had been uploaded and incorporated into \nPas, and another part had been subsequently \ndownloaded to Pig, who was blinded. When Pig \ngets his new eye, the part of Silk in Pig is \nuploaded into Mainframe, and knows that Horn\nis looking for Silk, so downloads back into\nHorn-in-Silk's-body, maybe revitalizing a part\nof Silk's psyche that somehow remained there. \n\nThe only question I have left is: if the Silk\nin Horn's body is Silver Silk, and not the \nnear-dead psyche of Silk, why did it take \nthree books for the narrator to realize that \nhe was really Silk? " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Stone Ox (Peter)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-11T15:00:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "<008a01c4f7ee$1e2f4cf0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I more or less agree, but now that you've got my interest piqued can you \ngive an example? I don't remember seeing any occasions that made it drop \ndead certain to me that he had Silk's memories, but then it has been a \nlittle while.\n\nCrush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Narrator or not) that Horn will succeed in taking Silk to Blue. He will \ntake\nSilk's body and all his memories (the Narrator makes several errors in\nmemory while on the Whorl that prove he still retains Silk's memories as\nwell as Horn's)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<014401c4f835$ea6be070$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-11T15:33:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Narrator or not) that Horn will succeed in taking Silk to Blue. He will\ntake\nSilk's body and all his memories (the Narrator makes several errors in\nmemory while on the Whorl that prove he still retains Silk's memories as\nwell as Horn's)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I more or less agree, but now that you've got my interest piqued can you\ngive an example? I don't remember seeing any occasions that made it drop\ndead certain to me that he had Silk's memories, but then it has been a\nlittle while." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh that's a fine thing. I can't remember a mistake at this moment but I\nremember NOTING them as I read RTTW. Also, I don't have my books with me. A\ncursory search in Amazon's book search does offer this, however, although it\nis not an error and it is not unequivocal:\n\nNarrator talking to the godling (who refers to him as \"holy one\"):\n\"It was as if there were shooting stars in his hands, like the stars at the\nbottom of the grave to which Silk and Hyacinth had driven Orpine's body in a\ndream he recalled with uncanny clarity.\"\nRTTW 138" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173705011115411d91379f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-11T15:42:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "<014401c4f835$ea6be070$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no doubt that the Narrator, right from _OBW_ on, has memories\nof Silk's life and occasionally slips and says things as if he were Silk rather\nthan Horn: thus referring to his wife as \"Hyacinth,\" for example." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:33:11 -0500, James Wynn wrote:\nNarrator or not) that Horn will succeed in taking Silk to Blue. He will\ntake\nSilk's body and all his memories (the Narrator makes several errors in\nmemory while on the Whorl that prove he still retains Silk's memories as\nwell as Horn's)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I more or less agree, but now that you've got my interest piqued can you\ngive an example? I don't remember seeing any occasions that made it drop\ndead certain to me that he had Silk's memories, but then it has been a\nlittle while." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh that's a fine thing. I can't remember a mistake at this moment but I\nremember NOTING them as I read RTTW. Also, I don't have my books with me. A\ncursory search in Amazon's book search does offer this, however, although it\nis not an error and it is not unequivocal:\n\nNarrator talking to the godling (who refers to him as \"holy one\"):\n\"It was as if there were shooting stars in his hands, like the stars at the\nbottom of the grave to which Silk and Hyacinth had driven Orpine's body in a\ndream he recalled with uncanny clarity.\"\nRTTW 138\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<017001c4f842$aa5120b0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-11T17:04:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "<1f76173705011115411d91379f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is no doubt that the Narrator, right from _OBW_ on, has memories\nof Silk's life and occasionally slips and says things as if he were Silk\nrather\nthan Horn: thus referring to his wife as \"Hyacinth,\" for example." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is true but the entire series was written after the Narrator returns to\nBlue and therefore after he separates from Pig. So the only errors and\nreferences that can \"count\" are those from RTTW describing events on the\nWhorl and only those that are dialog by the Narrator or that refer directly\nto his state of mind at the time.\n\nThat's why asking for specific instances is so tough. But I *am* convinced\nthey are there (and the quote I gave is proof enough for me).\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050112012201.EJUJ7026.fed1rmmtao10.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "aramini1 at cox.net", "address": "aramini1 at cox.net" }, "date": "2005-01-11T17:22:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "<017001c4f842$aa5120b0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The big, huge problem with getting specific instances of Silk in the third person \"HE\" of RTTW whorl scenes is that they weren't written by a witness - they are 3rd person - and why is that? Unfortunately, any writing of Silk into the narrator can easily be relegated to the discretion of the editors - making it impossible to PROVE his [psychic] identity one way or the other. \n\nWhy does the story start where it does? Is this because Silver Silk is Horn's impetus for writing? Is it just a matter of convenience? Or is it because he wants to find who he is through the process of writing his story, now that he has been commingled with Silk?\n\nMarc" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's why asking for specific instances is so tough. But I *am* convinced\nthey are there (and the quote I gave is proof enough for me).\n\n~ Crush\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-11T17:22:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "<017001c4f842$aa5120b0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What makes it quite tricky is that any supposed slips that we can catch are \nfor events that we've already seen described in BotLS - authored by Nettle \nand *Horn*. All we know about Silk's life, even, is what Horn has had \ndescribed to him, what he has interpolated/imagined, or downright made up to \nfill in gaps. I have never been able to fully dismiss the possibility that \nSilk is largely a fictional character invented by Horn (to give hope to the \ninhabitants of Blue, or for whatever reason).\n\nNot that I'm advocating this as the most likely theory or anything. Just \nthat our knowledge of the \"real Silk\" has to keep Horn's part in BotLS in \nmind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is no doubt that the Narrator, right from _OBW_ on, has memories\nof Silk's life and occasionally slips and says things as if he were Silk\nrather\nthan Horn: thus referring to his wife as \"Hyacinth,\" for example." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is true but the entire series was written after the Narrator returns \nto\nBlue and therefore after he separates from Pig. So the only errors and\nreferences that can \"count\" are those from RTTW describing events on the\nWhorl and only those that are dialog by the Narrator or that refer directly\nto his state of mind at the time.\n\nThat's why asking for specific instances is so tough. But I *am* convinced\nthey are there (and the quote I gave is proof enough for me).\n\n~ Crush\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<018601c4f849$5985d2a0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-11T17:52:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "<20050112012201.EJUJ7026.fed1rmmtao10.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc says" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The big, huge problem with getting specific instances of Silk in the third\nperson \"HE\" of RTTW whorl scenes is that they weren't written by a witness\n- they are 3rd person - and why is that? Unfortunately, any writing of\nSilk\ninto the narrator can easily be relegated to the discretion of the\neditors -\nmaking it impossible to PROVE his [psychic] identity one way or the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. But then we have to suppose what is the motive of Hide and Co. in\nputting little hints of confusion about the Narrator's identity into his\nstatements and references to his state of mind --unless the Narrator told\nthem it happened. At some point you have to say that Wolfe tells stories\nfrom \"a distance\" simply because he likes to (either with a narrator who\ndoes know how alien his own nature is, or has a such a short term memory\nthat he can't verify that he wrote the document, or who is insane, or who is\nsomeone that really could only barely know the protagonist). Not because\nthere is some sort of secret literary clue to be provide in him doing so. If\nI can't trust the veracity of the narrator even when there is no reason not\nto, how am I supposed to figure anything out anyway?\n\nChris points out that we can't prove that Silk is anything but a creation of\nHorn's. Why not Nettle as well? We also can't prove that Latro -- even if we\nwere to interrogate him -- wrote most of the Soldier stories. He can't\nverify it. I'm not going down that road, but it is one that Wolfe has\noffered to us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why does the story start where it does? Is this because Silver Silk is\nHorn's impetus for writing? Is it just a matter of convenience? Or is it\nbecause he wants to find who he is through the process of writing his\nstory,\nnow that he has been commingled with Silk?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Most likely because he didn't have an opportunity to write until he became\n\"sultan\" on Blue. Anyway, it is Horn who has more of a proven penchant for\nwriting than Silk did.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-13T14:51:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd said I wouldn't rehearse my objections to the Silk-to-Pig-to-Horn\nscenario, but other people have raised the issue, here are some of my\nreasons for believing that Silk's memories and personality are present in\nthe Narrator throughout his stay on the Whorl.\n\n1. An old post of mine from the Whorl list, when the topic was first\nthrashed out, from 2/14/01:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/13/01 8:05 PM, Kevin J. Maroney at kmaroney at ungames.com wrote:\nTo me, the giveaway that there's a huge amount of Silk in \"the protagonist\"\nfrom the moment that Horn moves into his body is the amount of minutiae\nthat he displays about the religion of Pas and the Children while on the\n_Whorl_. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed; and not only his knowledge, but the sententiousness with which he\ndispenses it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know the conversation about \"what do you call it when you read the future\nfrom the flight of birds?\" is with Pig, and I believe he does a full\nexegesis of an excerpt from the Chrasmological Writings before the scene\nMichael discusses. The Chrasmomancy in particular strikes me as being\nunmistakably Silk; in fact, while reading the novel I felt it was somewhat\nout of character for Horn to be so Silkian. I should know better.....\n\nAnyway, refresh my memory. Does the protagonist indulge in Chrasmomancy\nbefore he gives his eye to Pig? If so, I'd say that's strong evidence that\nhe's largely Silk from the moment they merge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He does, in Chapter 12, with Olivine, an exegesis that takes several pages.\nVery Silkian.\n\nThere are additianal signs of Silk's presence in \"Horn\" on the Whorl. For\none thing, there is his strong visceral reaction to the knife he finds at\nhis feet (13-14). I don't see how to explain this, other than that he\nunconsciously remembers this knife injuring him. For another, almost as\nsoon as \"Horn\" appears on Whorl, he is thinking about Hyacinth and of how\nmuch he wanted her and how much better things would have been if he had\ngotten her (this motif recurs later, though I can't find the place at the\nmoment).\n\n\n2. From another post of mine from the Whorl list, from 2/16/01, on his\nbehavior in and around Blood's mansion:\n\nHe first tells Pig he wants to enter the mansion alone, with no explanation\n(118, 119). When Pig insists on coming with him, he deceives him so as to\nbe able to go in alone (121). Once inside, he gets \"a sort of itch\" to find\nHyacinth's bedroom, although he tells himself it's foolish. He decides to\ntry to return to Hound, hoping to blunder into Hyacinth's bedroom on the\nway. And he does eventually find himself, by chance, in Hyacinth's dressing\nchamber; although he's never been there before, he \"knew with absolute\ncertainty\" that that's what it is (134-35). From this evidence \"Horn\" is\njust as fixated upon Hyacinth as the Silk-possessed Pig is, though better\nable to rationalize it.\n\n\n3. The Narrator on the Whorl knows that he's in someone else's body, and he\nknows that everyone he meets thinks he's Silk. Yet he never makes, or even\nconsiders, the obvious conclusion that he's in Silk's body. I don't see any\ngood explanation for this, apart from the influence of Silk's personality\ndenying its own identity.\n\n\n4. Is it really likely that Silk-in-Pig would possess Horn and let himself\nbe taken to Blue? Silk-in-Pig had told Horn that he wanted to return to\nMainframe to be reunited with Kypris, iirc. Would he then immediately embark\nupon another exile from Kypris, with only a very uncertain hope of return?\nMarc presented it as an act of self-sacrifice for Horn's sake; but, for all\nthe talk about Silk's saintliness, he put his personal feelings for Hyacinth\nabove his duty. I see no evidence that Silk-in-Pig would be any different.\n\n\nAs to Marc's questioning of the reliability of the third-person sections: to\nbe sure, from the point of view of realism it's rather implausible that the\nNarrator's conversations with his family could have contained the\nmoment-to-moment detail of the Narrator's thoughts that we find in the the\n\"editors'\" narrative. But I don't see that the book gains anything by\ntreating these sections as unreliable. Unlike in 5HC or PEACE, the\n\"editors'\" reliability or lack of it isn't one of the things the book is\nabout. If we're going to say anything about the Narrator's time on the\nWhorl, we have to assume that the accounts of it are reliable.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003201c4f9cb$23711f70$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-13T15:53:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If we're going to say anything about the Narrator's time on the\nWhorl, we have to assume that the accounts of it are reliable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice analysis, Adam.\n\nOne other thing, if the accounts of Silk's psyche being present in the\nNarrator are in doubt due to Hide&co's authorship, then all the alleged\ntextual clues that Silver Silk entered Silk's body are equally in doubt. It\nis not fair to accept the third person authors' account as valid for the\nreferences for the theory you like, and then reject every clue to the\ncontrary based on their unreliability.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173705011316485df6e1c0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-13T16:48:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "<003201c4f9cb$23711f70$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:53:53 -0500, James Wynn wrote:\nOne other thing, if the accounts of Silk's psyche being present in the\nNarrator are in doubt due to Hide&co's authorship, then all the alleged\ntextual clues that Silver Silk entered Silk's body are equally in doubt. It\nis not fair to accept the third person authors' account as valid for the\nreferences for the theory you like, and then reject every clue to the\ncontrary based on their unreliability." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right: in the end, we have the text we have and no guarantee of anything\nbehind it.\n\nI said something of this sort long ago, but let me elaborate:\n\nI think that Wolfe has deliberately set up textual problems analogous \nto those facing interpreters of the New Testament. \n\nSpecifically, I see a clear analogy between the LS and the \nGospels - a detailed account by someone who, it turns out, \nwasn't actually there for most of the events narrated. Horn's\n\"defense\" at the end reminds me quite a bit of the first couple\nof verses of Luke, in fact.\n\nAnd then ... the journeys of a man who's imbued with Silk's\nspirit? Whose writings have made Silk a godlike hero figure\nto many peoples? Gadzooks, could this be an analogy to\nthe Acts of the Apostles and Especially Saul Who Is Called\nPaul Except At The Beginning?\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nFreedom has no barcode.\n --J.G. Ballard" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-14T12:09:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "<018601c4f849$5985d2a0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I did mention Nettle parenthetically, I just didn't feel like \nrepeating \"Horn and/or Nettle\" throughout. But the more I think about it \nthis line of thinking isn't just gratuitous and almost can't be accidental, \neither.\n\nThe most suggestive thing that immediately occurs to me is that, in Long Sun \nand even more so in his travels on Blue in BotSS, one of the primary devices \nor M.O.'s associated with Silk is the way he can deceive the bad guy by \nsuggestion, without actually lying; the person talking to him ends up \ninferring, from Silk's silence on a given subject, from his utterance of \nstatements that can be taken in more than one way, or even from his outright \ndenial, the very conclusion Silk refuses to lead them to directly. The \nparticular aspect where Silk reinforces their suspicion by denying that it \nis true is striking. Now, during the portion of the books purportedly \nnarrated by Silkhorn, does he ever actually claim to be Silk? And how is it \nthat we come to that conclusion anyway, despite his repeated denials in the \ntext that he is Silk (so much so that we come up with explanations in which \nhis denial that he is Silk somehow makes it *more* plausible that he \nactually is Silk)? Is the reader exempt from being tricked in the same way \ncharacters in the book are?\n\nNow, irrespective of Silk's actual existence, we have to accept as a fact \nthat the author of BotSS is aware of this device/strategy of... what can you \ncall it, leading someone to deceive themselves? If the author didn't have a \ngood grasp/mastery of the device themselves, they wouldn't be able to \nportray someone else doing it so vividly and insightfully. So the author of \nthe books is ultimately as capable of this kind of deception as Silk is.\n\nThere are potentially good motives for such a deception: the book's \nhypothetical audience are the people of Blue, who are in desperate need of \nhope and of a particular message. A real person who is *present*, as the \nsource of such a message, has the problem of being able to be killed, \nhumiliated, discredited - one of the reasons, incidentally, that I felt so \nstrongly that it was unavoidable for Silk to leave at the end of BotSS. \nSilk, present only as he is presented in the books, is an unimpeachable \nsource if you believe in him (and, clearly, we all find the portrayal \nconvincing enough that we think there was a real Silk). But \"if Silk wasn't \nreal, we would have to invent him.\"\n\nThere are a lot of textual passages that suggest a real Silk, but \nunfortunately most of them aren't helpful for this particular purpose. The \npassages that are most of interest are the ones that could be verified or \ndenied by a character (who is not the author/editor) that could be heard by \nthe presumed audience (the people of Blue). This suggests to me that what \nmay be the best place in the text to look is Silkhorn's final encounter with \nRemora. That scene certainly suggests that Silkhorn is really Silk, but the \nquestion is, on close reading, does it tell us this unequivocally? I'm going \nto check this passage tonight; it would be nice if it settled this nagging \ndoubt, but I have a feeling that it is going to (deliberately) leave just \nenough ambiguity..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris points out that we can't prove that Silk is anything but a creation \nof\nHorn's. Why not Nettle as well? We also can't prove that Latro -- even if \nwe\nwere to interrogate him -- wrote most of the Soldier stories. He can't\nverify it. I'm not going down that road, but it is one that Wolfe has\noffered to us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why does the story start where it does? Is this because Silver Silk is\nHorn's impetus for writing? Is it just a matter of convenience? Or is \nit\nbecause he wants to find who he is through the process of writing his\nstory,\nnow that he has been commingled with Silk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Most likely because he didn't have an opportunity to write until he became\n\"sultan\" on Blue. Anyway, it is Horn who has more of a proven penchant for\nwriting than Silk did.\n\n~ Crush\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<006601c4faa6$c50794a0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-14T18:06:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I did mention Nettle parenthetically, I just didn't feel like\nrepeating \"Horn and/or Nettle\" throughout." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! So you did. But I could extend this to every character in the story, not\njust Nettle. But then, from this post (I think) I see you are getting at\nsomething else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, during the portion of the books purportedly\nnarrated by Silkhorn, does he ever actually claim to be Silk?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, he doesn't. Not even when he comes to terms with \"himself\" through\nRemora's counsel. Everywhere else he adamantly denies it.\n\nI'm not sure I understand your point, but I'm going to take a crack at this\nanyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And how is it\nthat we come to that conclusion anyway, despite his repeated denials in the\ntext that he is Silk (so much so that we come up with explanations in which\nhis denial that he is Silk somehow makes it *more* plausible that he\nactually is Silk)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, for one thing, Mint and Bison are quite convinced he is. Hound says\nhe's seen pictures of Silk and that he is certain he is. They are certain he\nis Silk because he looks like him, which suggests there was a Silk to look\nlike. This is the part written by Hide&co. but I suppose the conversations\ncould be made up as well. Then again, Mint and Bison's description of how\nSilk left the Caldeship does not seem designed to make him look heroic.\n\nBut then, all these characters could be all made up I suppose...they really\n*are* all made up of course, so if they were made IN the narration as well,\nhow could we tell?\n\nRemora on Blue certainly remembers a Silk. So does Marrow. And Scleroderma\nwrote an alternate book about him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is the reader exempt from being tricked in the same way\ncharacters in the book are?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Civet, you know what I think on this. I believe he is not Silk. I\nbelieve he is \"Horn\", but not the Horn he tells Hide that he is.\nI also believe he *is* Silk and Horn, but in an entirely different sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are a lot of textual passages that suggest a real Silk, but\nunfortunately most of them aren't helpful for this particular purpose. The\npassages that are most of interest are the ones that could be verified or\ndenied by a character (who is not the author/editor) that could be heard by\nthe presumed audience (the people of Blue). This suggests to me that what\nmay be the best place in the text to look is Silkhorn's final encounter\nwith Remora. That scene certainly suggests that Silkhorn is really Silk,\nbut the question is, on close reading, does it tell us this unequivocally?\nI'm going to check this passage tonight; it would be nice if it settled\nthis nagging doubt, but I have a feeling that it is going to (deliberately)\nleave just enough ambiguity..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See, here's why I'm not sure I'm getting your point exactly. If we accept\nthe Narrator's telling of Remora and how he came to Lizard to talk enlist\nHorn in a mission to get Silk, then isn't it clear that Silk is a real\nperson?\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-15T02:35:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) silver glass", "in_reply_to": "<006601c4faa6$c50794a0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, for one thing, Mint and Bison are quite convinced he is. Hound says\nhe's seen pictures of Silk and that he is certain he is. They are certain \nhe\nis Silk because he looks like him, which suggests there was a Silk to look\nlike. This is the part written by Hide&co. but I suppose the conversations\ncould be made up as well. Then again, Mint and Bison's description of how\nSilk left the Caldeship does not seem designed to make him look heroic.\n\nBut then, all these characters could be all made up I suppose...they really\n*are* all made up of course, so if they were made IN the narration as well,\nhow could we tell?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, much of this is for the sake of argument, although I do think the \nstatement \"if Silk didn't really exist, we would have to invent him\" does \nhave a certain truth to it, regardless - it is in a way this phrase that \nmakes me take seriously the possibility that, within the context of the \nstory, he was invented. (Or that, thematically, it doesn't *matter* whether \nhe was invented, but this will take more explanation on my part so I'll \nleave that question for later).\n\nSince this story is sort of a letter wrapped in multiple envelopes, I am \nfirst removing Wolfe (and us, in a way) from the equation temporarily - so \nthe author we are concerned with is the fictional author (Horn, Silk, \nNettle, anyone else), and the audience is the collected population of Blue \nwho have access to the books. (I know even this can be approached more \nradically, but in this conjecture we're already stretched so far that this \nwould just be gratuitous).\n\nAs far as the audience of Blue is concerned, there are characters that can't \nbe entirely made up because, presumably, someone would know some of them (or \nknow someone who knew some of them, etc), and some events that would be \nmatters of public record. Relatively few of these would be characters from \nBotLS, but there would be some. Of these Remora seems particularly important \nto me because he is in a position to confirm or deny to anyone who asks him \nwhether or not some of the events of BotLS really happened. This already \nmakes the possibility of Silk being *wholly* fictional unlikely, unless \nthere is some reasonable motivation that could lead him to play along with \nsuch a fiction. In any event most, if not all, of the rest of the characters \non Blue who have a similar ability to confirm or deny are dead or have no \ninteraction with the narrator at the time of RttW." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Civet, you know what I think on this. I believe he is not Silk. I\nbelieve he is \"Horn\", but not the Horn he tells Hide that he is.\nI also believe he *is* Silk and Horn, but in an entirely different sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know the exact specifics of what you think about Silkhorn, but I \nknow that I agree with you on the general points of it.\n\nAs far as purely textual analysis goes, I think it safe to assume that the \nnarrator who returns is not the same physical body that left; there are a \nmultitude of people available to the assumed audience who could verify, so \ndeception on this point wouldn't work for the author. For mostly thematic \nreasons I believe that he is Horn, and for the same thematic reasons I agree \nthat he *is* Silk in at least one sense, and possibly more than one. I think \nthat in an important way the point of BotSS is about \"being Silk\", not just \nfor Horn but for everyone on Blue, and the point is developed \nmicrocosmically (is that a word?) in Horn, and macrocosmically in the events \nthat unfold around him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "See, here's why I'm not sure I'm getting your point exactly. If we accept\nthe Narrator's telling of Remora and how he came to Lizard to talk enlist\nHorn in a mission to get Silk, then isn't it clear that Silk is a real\nperson?\n\n~ Crush" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, this was one of the things that nagged at me even when I was reading \nthe book, because I sort of wondered about Horn as an author before I even \nstarted BotSS. And this led to a disturbingly plausible interpretation of \nthe mission.\n\nRemora wasn't the only one to come to Lizard; he came with the most powerful \npeople in the town, and he seems to have been only a reluctant partner. We \nknow that there was no love lost between them and Horn, and I got the \nimpression that they also didn't like the influence of his book. Given their \nsomewhat dubious moral standing (regardless of their power), it would have \nprobably been futile for one of them to try to defuse or discredit the \nBotLS, which clearly appealed to people. So it occured to me at the time \nthat it would be a convenient way to get rid of Horn without having his \nblood on their hands to go to him and say \"So, if your messiah-figure is \nreal, why don't you go bring him back for us? Here's a ticket on the next \nship out.\" Horn is placed in a position where he can refuse, discrediting \nhimself to some extent and lessening the power of his book, or go off on the \nmission. Once gone, he could die or otherwise not come back (a winning \nsituation for them), come back empty-handed (again lessening the power of \nthe book and losing favor himself), or come back with someone. Even if that \nsomeone were Silk, a real Silk would be far preferable to them than a \nliterary Silk because a real Silk could be killed, framed up and smeared, \nhumiliated, or otherwise ruined and made an example of.\n\nAnd it seems to me that Horn's exposition of his reasons for going are meant \nto put his reader off the cynical consideration of why he really had little \nchoice but to leave. But regardless, it does seem like the powers that be \nreally didn't expect to see him return." } ] }, { "message_id": "<005001c4fb0a$612adbe0$f0406596@crunchynut>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2005-01-15T05:59:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could have missed it, but haven't noticed anyone giving the place name \ndefinition of \"Ormsby\" courtesy of google: \"Village of the Worm/Dragon\". \n(The real Ormsby in northern England is apparently more likely to have been \nfounded by a Viking named Orm, ie Dragon, apparently a common enough name \nfor Vikings.)\n\n\"Art Ormsby\" then translates to \"Art from Dragonville\". Griffonford sounds \npretty much like Dragonville in Mag's little passage in the Room of Lost \nLoves - with only Black Bethold and a couple of others resisting Setr & \nGrengarm. If that's a connection we're supposed to draw, I find it more \nconfusing than anything. If Art's surname is Ormsby, then it's probably also \nhis father's. I think we know that his mother or some version of her went to \nGriffonford from America, but are we also to suppose that his father (or \nsome version of him) went *from* Griffonford *to* America?\n\nYou never know with Wolfe whether you're loading too much on to little \nthings, or not enough.\n\nUnrelated, but I've also missed any mention of Michael as the commander of \nthe host of God in the First Battle and/or the Last Battle. In the second, \nhe slays the Great Worm Satan. He's clearly an appropriate patron for Art." } ] }, { "message_id": "<005601c4fb16$1f0f5f90$f0406596@crunchynut>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2005-01-15T07:23:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael and Setr", "in_reply_to": "<005001c4fb0a$612adbe0$f0406596@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forogt to mention Setr also. Apparently \"r\" is an Old Norse masculine case \nending. I vaguely recall somebody associating Setr with some figure from \nNorse mythology, but it seem to me that we also have Typhon/Set once again \nas the figure of a tyrant with ambitions to conquer heaven.\n\n----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andrew Bollen\" \nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 12:28 AM\nSubject: (urth) Ormsby, Michael\nCould have missed it, but haven't noticed anyone giving the place name \ndefinition of \"Ormsby\" courtesy of google: \"Village of the Worm/Dragon\". \n(The real Ormsby in northern England is apparently more likely to have \nbeen founded by a Viking named Orm, ie Dragon, apparently a common enough \nname for Vikings.)\n\n\"Art Ormsby\" then translates to \"Art from Dragonville\". Griffonford sounds \npretty much like Dragonville in Mag's little passage in the Room of Lost \nLoves - with only Black Bethold and a couple of others resisting Setr & \nGrengarm. If that's a connection we're supposed to draw, I find it more \nconfusing than anything. If Art's surname is Ormsby, then it's probably \nalso his father's. I think we know that his mother or some version of her \nwent to Griffonford from America, but are we also to suppose that his \nfather (or some version of him) went *from* Griffonford *to* America?\n\nYou never know with Wolfe whether you're loading too much on to little \nthings, or not enough.\n\nUnrelated, but I've also missed any mention of Michael as the commander of \nthe host of God in the First Battle and/or the Last Battle. In the second, \nhe slays the Great Worm Satan. He's clearly an appropriate patron for Art.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000601c4fb26$519f4d20$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-15T09:19:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael and Setr", "in_reply_to": "<005601c4fb16$1f0f5f90$f0406596@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I forogt to mention Setr also. Apparently \"r\" is an Old Norse masculine\ncase\nending. I vaguely recall somebody associating Setr with some figure from\nNorse mythology, but it seem to me that we also have Typhon/Set once again\nas the figure of a tyrant with ambitions to conquer heaven." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I haven't been able to identify any mythological connection to\n\"setr\". It's Scandinavian for a fisherman's hut or a farm house. I can't\nunderstand the significance unless Wolfe is connecting the term \"homestead\"\nwith it's synonym \"steading\" and from there \"one who stands in the place of\nanother\".\n\nI think Arnthor as much like Typhon as Setr except that Setr does have a\n\"second head\" so to speak in the form of Garsecg.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-15T10:26:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael and Setr", "in_reply_to": "<000601c4fb26$519f4d20$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely SETR = SURTUR the primaeval fire giant??? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I forogt to mention Setr also. Apparently \"r\" is an Old Norse masculine\ncase\nending. I vaguely recall somebody associating Setr with some figure from\nNorse mythology" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001a01c4fb37$1a908b30$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-15T11:19:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael and Setr", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I forogt to mention Setr also. Apparently \"r\" is an Old Norse masculine\ncase\nending. I vaguely recall somebody associating Setr with some figure from\nNorse mythology" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Surely SETR = SURTUR the primeval fire giant???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's the thing about that. Wolfe likes to be precise about his spellings.\nThe name of the Whorl goddess is Sphigx, not Sphinx. Sphigx is the literal\ntranscription of the name from Greek. \"Arnthor\" is a Scandinavian version of\nArthur. Valfather is an actual title for Odin. This seems to be a pattern to\nme. Wolfe *likes* using *actual* names that are close to the original. Look\nat names like Garsecg and Garvaon...very precise.\n\nThere's a lot to recommend Surtur or Surt or Srtr as a reference to our boy\nfrom Muspel, I admit. But there's also a lot that jars with Setr. Surtur\nisn't JUST a \"primeval\" fire giant: he remakes the world after Ragnarok, and\nthat doesn't sound like Setr. But my main question is if Wolfe meant Surtur,\nwhy didn't he just USE that name? And why Setr of all things? Even if Wolfe\nhad in mind Surtur in mind as well, is this the PRIMARY reason for his\nchoice of name?\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-15T12:39:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael and Setr", "in_reply_to": "<001a01c4fb37$1a908b30$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well the exact meaning of \"setr\" is \"dairy-pasture\" according to the Viking \nAnswers Lady (whom it might be well to bookmark). \n\nhttp://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Surtur isn't JUST a \"primeval\" fire giant: he remakes the world \nafter Ragnarok," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pish tosh. Mere Christian interpolation that. Ragnarok is the end. \n\n\nAnd Surtur doesn't remake the world (I don't know where you heard that), he \nburns it all up. \n\nAlso Muspelheim is traditionally Surtur's realm, one of the Nine Worlds \n\n\n***First of worlds was Muspellheim, in the Southern regions. It is bright \nand hot. That place is aflame, and burning and it is impassable to those who \nare not native to it. There is one called Surt who is stationed there at the \nfrontier to defend that land. He has a flaming sword and at the end of the \nworld he will go and wage war and burn the whole world with fire*** \n\n(Prose Edda) \n\n \n\n\nStill, I suspect Wolfe may be trying to smuggle in something else. What??? \n\n \n\n\nand" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that doesn't sound like Setr. But my main question is if Wolfe meant Surtur,\nwhy didn't he just USE that name? And why Setr of all things? Even if Wolfe\nhad in mind Surtur in mind as well, is this the PRIMARY reason for his\nchoice of name? \n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<41E98FB9.3030809@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "maru dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-15T13:48:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael and Setr", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*Maru pounces!\nYou my friend, just made a big mistake.\nRagnarok is most definitely NOT the end.\nThat doens't hold water; both because of the cyclical\nelements and numerology in Norse paganism, and because that contradicts \ndirectly what is said in the Elder/Poetic Edda.\nIn the Larrington translation, we read in 'The Seeress' Prophecy' that \nafter the great battle, after Surt 'high flame plays against heaven \nitself' v57, the seeress continues:\n\t'She sees, coming up a second time,\n\tEarth from the ocean, eternally green;\n\tthe waterfall plunges, an eagle soars over it,\n\thunting fish on the mountain. v59\nand most importantly;\n\t'The Aesir meet on Idavoll\n\tand they converse about the mighty Earth-girdler,\n\tand they remember there the great events\n\tand the ancient runes of the Mighty One. v60\nafter that they refind their old hnefatafl game pieces, Baldr will \nreturn from Hel. 'do you understand yet, or what more?' v63\n More interesting, the part that leads to the 'christian \ninterpolation' you revile is v65:\n\t'Then the powerful, mighty one, he who rules over\n\teverything,\n\twill come from above, to the judgementplace of the gods.\nI personally think it is Odin but...\nAnd, should you persist in your error of seeing the Norse as inhabiting \nan Eschatological religious framework, check the last, final verse out, \nthe one which really clinches the case for cyclicalness.\nv66\n\tThere comes the dark dragon flying\n\tthe shining serpent, up from Dark-of-moon Hills\n\tNidhogg flies over the plains, in his wings\n\the carries corpses; now she must sink down.\nEven after ragnarok, evil continues.\nYou should be more careful what you say.\n~Maru\n\t" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andy Robertson wrote:\nWell the exact meaning of \"setr\" is \"dairy-pasture\" according to the \nViking Answers Lady (whom it might be well to bookmark).\nhttp://www.vikinganswerlady.com/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Surtur isn't JUST a \"primeval\" fire giant: he remakes the world after \nRagnarok," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pish tosh. Mere Christian interpolation that. Ragnarok is the end.\n\nAnd Surtur doesn't remake the world (I don't know where you heard that), \nhe burns it all up.\nAlso Muspelheim is traditionally Surtur's realm, one of the Nine Worlds\n\n***First of worlds was Muspellheim, in the Southern regions. It is \nbright and hot. That place is aflame, and burning and it is impassable \nto those who are not native to it. There is one called Surt who is \nstationed there at the frontier to defend that land. He has a flaming \nsword and at the end of the world he will go and wage war and burn the \nwhole world with fire***\n(Prose Edda)\n\n\n\nStill, I suspect Wolfe may be trying to smuggle in something else. \nWhat???\n\n\n\nand" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that doesn't sound like Setr. But my main question is if Wolfe meant \nSurtur,\nwhy didn't he just USE that name? And why Setr of all things? Even if \nWolfe\nhad in mind Surtur in mind as well, is this the PRIMARY reason for his\nchoice of name?\n~ Crush" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002601c4fb4d$cb7284b0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-15T14:01:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael and Setr", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hartshorn (seeming a bit cranky this afternoon) says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well the exact meaning of \"setr\" is \"dairy-pasture\" according to the Viking\nAnswers Lady" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With apologies to the Viking Answer Lady, here are the results of a quick\nGoogle:\nhttp://www.10callicvol.com/centre/callicvol/\n\"In addition the Old Norse 'saetr' ('setr') means a shieling or steading and\nappears in Lewis as 'Shader', in for example 'Cuidhsiadar', cattlefold\nshieling or farm.\"\n\nhttp://www.northvegr.org/zoega/h247.php\nA Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic:\nkonungs-atsetr, n. king's residence;\n-setr, n. royal residence\n\nhttp://www.northvegr.org/zoega/h095.php\nA Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic:\nThere's also a seeming use of the word as a verb meaning \"to change\nsomething\". But I don't find it directly referred to anywhere.\n\nBy the way, Northvegr.org is definitely worth bookmarking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Surtur isn't JUST a \"primeval\" fire giant: he remakes the world\nafter Ragnarok," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pish tosh. Mere Christian interpolation that. Ragnarok is the end." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did Hartshorn just pish-tosh me?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the Prose Edda:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.northvegr.org/lore/prose2/016.php\nVidar or Vitharr or Vithar or Withr (etc.) is the son of Odin is but one of\nthe Aesir that survive Ragnarok. He kills Fenrir by pulling apart his jaws\nand rules in the place of his father. He wears an iron-toed shoe to\nfacilitate ass-kicking.\n\nAnd Vidar isn't the only one to survive:\nhttp://www.northvegr.org/lore/prose2/017.php\n\"Then said Ganglere: Do any gods live then? Is there any earth or heaven?\nHar answered: The earth rises again from the sea, and is green and fair. The\nfields unsown produce their harvests. Vidar and Vale live. Neither the sea\nnor Surt's fire has harmed them, and they dwell on the plains of Ida, where\nAsgard was before. Thither come also the sons of Thor, Mode and Magne, and\nthey have Mjolner. Then come Balder and Hoder from Hel. They all sit\ntogether and talk about the things that happened aforetime,---about the\nMidgard-serpent and the Fenris-wolf. They find in the grass those golden\ntables which the asas once had.\"\n\nThe last two humans are Lif and Lifthraser, and they repopulate the world.\n\nhttp://www.northvegr.org/lore/poems/000_07.php\nIn Vafthr., 50-51, Odin asks: 'Which of the Asir shall rule over the\npossessions of the gods when Surt's flame shall be extinguished?' And the\ngiant answers: V?thar and V?li shall occupy the dwelling of the gods when\nSurt's flame shall be quenched.'\n\nIncidentally, Vidar's twin brother also survives as do Thor's sons who\nreclaim his hammer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Surtur doesn't remake the world (I don't know where you heard that), he\nburns it all up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's true. He also slays Frey at Ragnarok. I cannot remember my source on\nSurtur as a Maker god who remakes things when the Earth rises again from the\nsea. I don't have access to my books so I can't check it. It is possible\nthat it is not universally accepted, but I don't think it is so obscure that\nWolfe would be unaware of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also Muspelheim is traditionally Surtur's realm, one of the Nine Worlds" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still, I suspect Wolfe may be trying to smuggle in something else.\nWhat???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. What, indeed.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003c01c4fb55$8ee6f870$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-15T14:57:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael and Setr", "in_reply_to": "<41E98FB9.3030809@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I cannot remember my source on\nSurtur as a Maker god who remakes things\nwhen the Earth rises again from the sea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More interesting, the part that leads to the 'christian\ninterpolation' you revile is v65:\n'Then the powerful, mighty one, he who rules over\neverything,\nwill come from above, to the judgement place of the gods.\nI personally think it is Odin but..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remembering something....\n\nFinn Magussen said I think that Sutur was that \"powerful, mighty one, he who\nrules over everything\" who would reveal himself after Ragnarok.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-15T15:09:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael and Setr", "in_reply_to": "<002601c4fb4d$cb7284b0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hartshorn (seeming a bit cranky this afternoon) says:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI certainly didn't mean to be angry: I was trying to make a joke. Gotta \nwork on that. I just like the Viking Answers Lady. :-) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The last two humans are Lif and Lifthraser, and they repopulate the world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI know that the restoration of the world after Ragnarok is part of the \nEddas: I happen to believe, however, that it is a late Christian \ninterpolation. \n\nMaybe I am allowing my own religious beliefs to obtrude too plainly here: I \nam an Odinist and I take this seriously, not as old stories but as a \nprimitive but accurate cosmology, one where the forces of good are \nauthentically outgunned and the world really ends. I don't believe in \nrepeated big bangs or in a reversal of the laws of Themodynamics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Still, I suspect Wolfe may be trying to smuggle in something else.\nWhat???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. What, indeed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThe \"world\" Wolfe creates is very like the Norse universe, with its Overcyns \n(what genuine word is that BTW?) The Norse universe also has nine realms, \nand some of them correspond pretty well by name and nature to the levels of \nWolfe's world and some do not. \n\nThe ones that correspond well are in the middle. For example I have never \nseen a better description of the gods and what they are meant to be than I \nread in Wolfe's words about the Valfather, the Lady, and the other Overcyns. \nBut the bits at the top and bottom of Wolfe's world are from other \nbelief-structures and frankly they don't make as much sense in a Norse \nframework (no reason why they should, it's only a book). \n\nAccording to Wolfe's own explanations the Giants are the cast-offs from \nKleos, and their genisis in the realm of Skai was formed by the death of \nYmir. So Setr is not a giant in this sense since he is in Muspel and is \ntherefore of the residue of the residue of the residue of Skai - many layers \nof derivation below that. Maybe the spelling of Setr is just meant as \nacknowledgment of this. If it's more than that and a hint towards \"Set\" I \nhave no suggestions. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<005201c4fb5e$7b746620$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-15T16:01:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael and Setr", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know that the restoration of the world after Ragnarok is part of the\nEddas: I happen to believe, however, that it is a late Christian\ninterpolation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm. I'm not sure how this story makes Norse paganism more palatable to\nChristianity or vice versa. Well, maybe that part about the true god\nrevealing himself, but nothing in the others. The world resets and continues\nmuch as it did before. That's hardly the Christian worldview." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Overcyns (what genuine word is that BTW?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good question. I think *maybe* I know, but don't know how to put it without\nseeming to contradict myself.\n\nI think it is a derivation of \"eormcn-cyn\" which means \"superhuman\" or \"huge\none\". This is not a contradiction of Wolfe's M.O. because he is not changing\none obscure word for another. He is only translating one of part of the word\nbecause to convey the sense better and, anyway, how would English readers\npronounce \"eormcn\"? But he's not *just changing* the word.\nhttp://penguin.pearson.swarthmore.edu/~scrist1/scanned_books/html/oi_cleasbyvigfusson/b0328.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "According to Wolfe's own explanations the Giants are the cast-offs from\nKleos, and their genesis in the realm of Skai was formed by the death of\nYmir." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But IIRC the Norse worlds develop backwards from the way Wolfe's does. In\nother words, Middle Earth is formed from the fires of Muspelheim (thus\nSurturs indirect role, at least, in its creation).\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-15T20:00:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael", "in_reply_to": "<005001c4fb0a$612adbe0$f0406596@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andrew Bollen\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could have missed it, but haven't noticed anyone giving the place name \ndefinition of \"Ormsby\" courtesy of google: \"Village of the Worm/Dragon\". \n(The real Ormsby in northern England is apparently more likely to have been \nfounded by a Viking named Orm, ie Dragon, apparently a common enough name \nfor Vikings.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Art Ormsby\" then translates to \"Art from Dragonville\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the end of _The Knight_ Able (since this is the only name we know him by) \nhears \"a wind [soughing] among the treetops, chanting a thousand names. \nAmong them, both of mine.\" But how does Ormsby (since Arthur must be the \nother name) fit in with Walewein, Wace, Vortigern, Kyot, Yvain, Gottfried, \nEilhart, Palamedes, Duach, Tristan, Albrecht, and Caradoc? Is there anywhere \nin Arthurian literature a character named Ormsby? (This seems suggested by \nthe pedigree/provenance of the listed names.) And who or what is actually \nchanting these various names? Surely, we're not meant to believe it's really \nthe wind--unless it's the susurrus of Parka's bowstring.\n\nmsg" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Rabin", "address": "wolfe-lists at danrabin.com" }, "date": "2005-01-15T21:10:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps \"both of mine\" refers to \"Arthur\" and \"Able\" rather than \n\"Arthur\" and \"Ormsby\".\n\n -- Dan Rabin" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the end of _The Knight_ Able (since this is the only name we know \nhim by) hears \"a wind [soughing] among the treetops, chanting a \nthousand names. Among them, both of mine.\" But how does Ormsby \n(since Arthur must be the other name) fit in with Walewein, Wace, \nVortigern, Kyot, Yvain, Gottfried, Eilhart, Palamedes, Duach, \nTristan, Albrecht, and Caradoc? Is there anywhere in Arthurian \nliterature a character named Ormsby? (This seems suggested by the \npedigree/provenance of the listed names.) And who or what is \nactually chanting these various names? Surely, we're not meant to \nbelieve it's really the wind--unless it's the susurrus of Parka's \nbowstring.\n\nmsg" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00af01c4fb8b$da819d90$f0406596@crunchynut>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2005-01-15T21:26:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the end of _The Knight_ Able (since this is the only name we know him \nby)\nhears \"a wind [soughing] among the treetops, chanting a thousand names. \nAmong them, both of mine.\" But how does Ormsby (since Arthur must be the \nother name) fit in with Walewein, Wace, Vortigern, Kyot, Yvain, Gottfried, \nEilhart, Palamedes, Duach, Tristan, Albrecht, and Caradoc? Is there \nanywhere in Arthurian literature a character named Ormsby? (This seems \nsuggested by the pedigree/provenance of the listed names.) And who or what \nis actually chanting these various names? Surely, we're not meant to \nbelieve it's really the wind--unless it's the susurrus of Parka's \nbowstring.\n\nmsg" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My guess is that by \"both of mine\" he means \"both my name here, and my name \nin America\". So Arthur and Able.\n\nDoesn't somebody somewhere compare the voice of the Valfather to the wind in \nthe trees? Maybe Idnn when she meets him? " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-15T22:29:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael", "in_reply_to": "<00af01c4fb8b$da819d90$f0406596@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr Bollen, seconding Mr. Rabin's post, writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My guess is that by \"both of mine\" he means \"both my name here, and my name \nin America\". So Arthur and Able." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But we already know the narrator's being called Able, so why conceal it? And \nhow does \"Able\" connect with the other names mentioned, which all seem to be \nsomehow associated with Arthuriana? As the brilliant Mr Arimani has earlier \nnoted, the name Arthur is deducible from various clues (he's also right, I \nbelieve, about the structure of _The Wizard Knight_ being circular, which is \nwhy _The Wizard_ [ note its placement in the overall series title] should \nalmost be read first). What I'm trying to ascertain is if the name Ormsby is \nsimilarly deducible, and if so, how.\n\nAlso, was anyone else bothered by Gary Wolfe's boneheaded revelation of \nAble's real name in the first paragraph of his Locus review? Gene Wolfe \nthought it important enough not to reveal it until the very last two words \nof the series, so obviously he did not want it disclosed any earlier; and \nyet this is exactly what Dr. Wolfe does. A pox on all reviewers who fail to \nprovide spoiler warnings!\n\nI have a couple of weeks before I mail in my Hugo nominations, but wonder \nhow the WorldCon administrators will treat Wolfe's latest two books: as \nseparate novels or a single book. Anybody out there know?\n\nmsg\n\n*Otium sine litteris mors est.*" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00cf01c4fbc5$cbb9ff70$f0406596@crunchynut>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2005-01-16T04:20:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mounrings Glory writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But we already know the narrator's being called Able, so why conceal it? \nAnd how does \"Able\" connect with the other names mentioned, which all seem \nto be somehow associated with Arthuriana?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As to the first question, Art's not concealing anything. He's writing to \nBen, remember, who knows both names.\n\nAs to th second - dunno! " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370501170942863c6f3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-17T09:43:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby, Michael", "in_reply_to": "<005001c4fb0a$612adbe0$f0406596@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:28:59 +1030, Andrew Bollen\n wrote:\nCould have missed it, but haven't noticed anyone giving the place name\ndefinition of \"Ormsby\" courtesy of google: \"Village of the Worm/Dragon\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I pointed out a while back that \"Ormsby\" can be read as \"of the\nDragon,\" i.e., Pendragon.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nFreedom has no barcode.\n --J.G. Ballard" } ] } ] }