{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4296", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4296, "subject": "Orwell on Chesterton", "messages": 13, "voices": 8, "first": "2005-01-11T10:41:58+00:00", "last": "2005-01-11T14:25:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20050111184153.99593.qmail@web53510.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "aqala at yahoo.com", "address": "aqala at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-11T10:41:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orwell on Chesterton", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think some of this list’s subscribers will benefit from reading George\nOrwell’s opinion of G. K. Chesterton:\n\n-------------------quote-------------------\n...political Catholicism. Its most outstanding exponent—though he was\nperhaps an extreme case rather than a typical one—was G. K. Chesterton.\nChesterton was a writer of considerable talent who whose to suppress both\nhis sensibilities and his intellectual honesty in the cause of Roman\nCatholic propaganda. During the last twenty years or so of his life, his\nentire output was in reality an endless repetition of the same thing,\nunder its laboured cleverness as simple and boring as ‘Great is Diana of\nthe Ephesians.’ Every book that he wrote, every scrap of dialogue, had to\ndemonstrate beyond the possibility of mistake the superiority of the\nCatholic over the Protestant or the pagan. But Chesterton was not content\nto think of this superiority as merely intellectual or spiritual: it had\nto be translated into terms of national prestige and military power, which\nentailed an ignorant idealisation of the Latin countries, especially\nFrance. Chesterton had not lived long in France, and his picture of it—as\na land of Catholic peasants incessantly singing the MARSEILLAISE over\nglasses of red wine—had about as much relation to reality as CHU CHIN CHOW\nhas to everyday life in Baghdad. And with this went not only an enormous\noverestimation of French military power (both before and after 1914-18 he\nmaintained that France, by itself, was stronger than Germany), but a silly\nand vulgar glorification of the actual process of war. Chesterton’s\nbattle poems, such as Lepanto or The Ballad of Saint Barbara, make The\nCharge of the Light Brigade read like a pacifist tract: they are perhaps\nthe most tawdry bits of bombast to be found in our language. The\ninteresting thing is that had the romantic rubbish which he habitually\nwrote about France and the French army been written by somebody else about\nBritain and the British army, he would have been the first to jeer. In\nhome politics he was a Little Englander, a true hater of jingoism and\nimperialism, and according to his lights a true friend of democracy. Yet\nwhen he looked outwards into the international field, he could forsake his\nprinciples without even noticing he was doing so. Thus, his almost\nmystical belief in the virtues of democracy did not prevent him from\nadmiring Mussolini. Mussolini had destroyed the representative government\nand the freedom of the press for which Chesterton had struggled so hard at\nhome, but Mussolini was an Italian and had made Italy strong, and that\nsettled the matter. Nor did Chesterton ever find a word to say about\nimperialism and the conquest of coloured races when they were practised by\nItalians or Frenchmen. His hold on reality, his literary taste, and even\nto some extent his moral sense, were dislocated as soon as his\nnationalistic [Nationalism as defined by GO and not the standard meaning]\nloyalties were involved.\n\n[From NOTES ON NATIONALISM (1945)]\n-------------------quote-------------------\n\n\n\nMy own opinion of Chesterton is much shorter: \nA man so lacking in thought and intellect he converted to Catholicism when\nin his 40's. \n\n\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173705011110571de36a2f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-11T10:58:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orwell on Chesterton", "in_reply_to": "<20050111184153.99593.qmail@web53510.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aqala:\n\nI am a great admirer of both Orwell and Chesterton, and a\nman who is converting to Catholicism in his 40s, after a\ngreat deal (more than ten years) of thought.May I ask why\nyou feel it necessary to post something so inflammatorially\ninsulting?\n\n--Dan'l " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:41:52 -0800 (PST), aqala at yahoo.com\n wrote:\nI think some of this list's subscribers will benefit from reading George\nOrwell's opinion of G. K. Chesterton:\n\n-------------------quote-------------------\n...political Catholicism. Its most outstanding exponent?though he was\nperhaps an extreme case rather than a typical one was G. K. Chesterton.\nChesterton was a writer of considerable talent who whose to suppress both\nhis sensibilities and his intellectual honesty in the cause of Roman\nCatholic propaganda. During the last twenty years or so of his life, his\nentire output was in reality an endless repetition of the same thing,\nunder its laboured cleverness as simple and boring as 'Great is Diana of\nthe Ephesians.' Every book that he wrote, every scrap of dialogue, had to\ndemonstrate beyond the possibility of mistake the superiority of the\nCatholic over the Protestant or the pagan. But Chesterton was not content\nto think of this superiority as merely intellectual or spiritual: it had\nto be translated into terms of national prestige and military power, which\nentailed an ignorant idealisation of the Latin countries, especially\nFrance. Chesterton had not lived long in France, and his picture of it as\na land of Catholic peasants incessantly singing the MARSEILLAISE over\nglasses of red wine had about as much relation to reality as CHU CHIN CHOW\nhas to everyday life in Baghdad. And with this went not only an enormous\noverestimation of French military power (both before and after 1914-18 he\nmaintained that France, by itself, was stronger than Germany), but a silly\nand vulgar glorification of the actual process of war. Chesterton's\nbattle poems, such as Lepanto or The Ballad of Saint Barbara, make The\nCharge of the Light Brigade read like a pacifist tract: they are perhaps\nthe most tawdry bits of bombast to be found in our language. The\ninteresting thing is that had the romantic rubbish which he habitually\nwrote about France and the French army been written by somebody else about\nBritain and the British army, he would have been the first to jeer. In\nhome politics he was a Little Englander, a true hater of jingoism and\nimperialism, and according to his lights a true friend of democracy. Yet\nwhen he looked outwards into the international field, he could forsake his\nprinciples without even noticing he was doing so. Thus, his almost\nmystical belief in the virtues of democracy did not prevent him from\nadmiring Mussolini. Mussolini had destroyed the representative government\nand the freedom of the press for which Chesterton had struggled so hard at\nhome, but Mussolini was an Italian and had made Italy strong, and that\nsettled the matter. Nor did Chesterton ever find a word to say about\nimperialism and the conquest of coloured races when they were practised by\nItalians or Frenchmen. His hold on reality, his literary taste, and even\nto some extent his moral sense, were dislocated as soon as his\nnationalistic [Nationalism as defined by GO and not the standard meaning]\nloyalties were involved.\n\n[From NOTES ON NATIONALISM (1945)]\n-------------------quote-------------------\n\nMy own opinion of Chesterton is much shorter:\nA man so lacking in thought and intellect he converted to Catholicism when\nin his 40's.\n\n__________________________________\nDo you Yahoo!?\nAll your favorites on one personal page — Try My Yahoo!\nhttp://my.yahoo.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-11T11:08:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orwell on Chesterton", "in_reply_to": "<1f76173705011110571de36a2f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am a great admirer of both Orwell and Chesterton, and a\nman who is converting to Catholicism in his 40s, after a\ngreat deal (more than ten years) of thought." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nGood heavens. May I congratulate you??? \n\n \n\nMay I ask why" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "you feel it necessary to post something so inflammatorially\ninsulting? \n\n--Dan'l " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI must point out that the insults were Orwell's. He is right in one thing - \nafter an early efflorescence Chesterton decayed into (mostly) a stale \npolemicist who produced only the occasional good thing. But it does not \nfollow that his apologetics was simply bad (it wasn't) or that he decayed \nbecause he became a Catholic. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050111191612.83372.qmail@web20021.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-11T11:16:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orwell on Chesterton", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\nI must point out that the insults were Orwell's. He\nis right in one thing - \nafter an early efflorescence Chesterton decayed into\n(mostly) a stale \npolemicist who produced only the occasional good\nthing. But it does not \nfollow that his apologetics was simply bad (it\nwasn't) or that he decayed \nbecause he became a Catholic. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Orwell crossed any kind of critical line\nin what he wrote about Chesterton here; he seems to\nattack him more on political than religious grounds\nanyway. But it was clearly posted in the group as an\ninsult to certain members, though I can't claim to\nunderstand why. I mean, the religious views of most\nactive members on this list are well known, as are\nGene Wolfe's. Is the poster implying that Wolfe's\nnovels have become increasingly stale and polemical as\nhis religious and/or political beliefs have found a\nmore overt expression in his writing?\n\n\n\n=====\nhttp://www.sff.net/people/stilskin\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002a01c4f817$1c9ffdc0$63fc06cf@rw9s6no3t0dhzd>", "from": { "name": "Russell Wodell", "address": "wrustle at telus.net" }, "date": "2005-01-11T11:52:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orwell on Chesterton", "in_reply_to": "<20050111184153.99593.qmail@web53510.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I remember correctly, Anthony Burgess invented the \"Chesterbelloc,\" a \nstraw man which British anti-Catholic critics used to routinely abuse. [No, \nI'm wrong: the term was devised in 1908 by A.R. Orage, so Burgess must have \nbeen citing him.]\n\nA congenital non-Christian myself, in Ursula LeGuin's phrase, I am not \nreally bothered by the fact that many of my favourite authors are/were \nCatholic: Muriel Spark, Evelyn Waugh, David Lodge. Most, like Wolfe, \nrenegade Catholics, whose thoughts are anything but orthodox. Indeed, I \nsuspect Wolfe is if anything a heretic by Roman standards, and certainly he \nis no propagandist like, for example, the Anglican C.S. Lewis.\n\nSpark made the most concise defense in her first novel \"The Comforters\": \n\"The True Church was awful although, unfortunately, true.\" This is meant \nsatirically, but....\n\nMyself, I think Wolfe's prose style would have delighted Orwell\n\nRussell\n\n\n----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \nTo: \nSent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:41 AM\nSubject: (urth) Orwell on Chesterton\nI think some of this list's subscribers will benefit from reading George\nOrwell's opinion of G. K. Chesterton:\n\n-------------------quote-------------------\n...political Catholicism. Its most outstanding exponent-though he was\nperhaps an extreme case rather than a typical one-was G. K. Chesterton.\nChesterton was a writer of considerable talent who whose to suppress both\nhis sensibilities and his intellectual honesty in the cause of Roman\nCatholic propaganda. During the last twenty years or so of his life, his\nentire output was in reality an endless repetition of the same thing,\nunder its laboured cleverness as simple and boring as 'Great is Diana of\nthe Ephesians.' Every book that he wrote, every scrap of dialogue, had to\ndemonstrate beyond the possibility of mistake the superiority of the\nCatholic over the Protestant or the pagan. But Chesterton was not content\nto think of this superiority as merely intellectual or spiritual: it had\nto be translated into terms of national prestige and military power, which\nentailed an ignorant idealisation of the Latin countries, especially\nFrance. Chesterton had not lived long in France, and his picture of it-as\na land of Catholic peasants incessantly singing the MARSEILLAISE over\nglasses of red wine-had about as much relation to reality as CHU CHIN CHOW\nhas to everyday life in Baghdad. And with this went not only an enormous\noverestimation of French military power (both before and after 1914-18 he\nmaintained that France, by itself, was stronger than Germany), but a silly\nand vulgar glorification of the actual process of war. Chesterton's\nbattle poems, such as Lepanto or The Ballad of Saint Barbara, make The\nCharge of the Light Brigade read like a pacifist tract: they are perhaps\nthe most tawdry bits of bombast to be found in our language. The\ninteresting thing is that had the romantic rubbish which he habitually\nwrote about France and the French army been written by somebody else about\nBritain and the British army, he would have been the first to jeer. In\nhome politics he was a Little Englander, a true hater of jingoism and\nimperialism, and according to his lights a true friend of democracy. Yet\nwhen he looked outwards into the international field, he could forsake his\nprinciples without even noticing he was doing so. Thus, his almost\nmystical belief in the virtues of democracy did not prevent him from\nadmiring Mussolini. Mussolini had destroyed the representative government\nand the freedom of the press for which Chesterton had struggled so hard at\nhome, but Mussolini was an Italian and had made Italy strong, and that\nsettled the matter. Nor did Chesterton ever find a word to say about\nimperialism and the conquest of coloured races when they were practised by\nItalians or Frenchmen. His hold on reality, his literary taste, and even\nto some extent his moral sense, were dislocated as soon as his\nnationalistic [Nationalism as defined by GO and not the standard meaning]\nloyalties were involved.\n\n[From NOTES ON NATIONALISM (1945)]\n-------------------quote-------------------\n\n\n\nMy own opinion of Chesterton is much shorter:\nA man so lacking in thought and intellect he converted to Catholicism when\nin his 40's.\n\n\n\n\n\n__________________________________\nDo you Yahoo!?\nAll your favorites on one personal page - Try My Yahoo!\nhttp://my.yahoo.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<006901c4f821$63024980$e0416596@crunchynut>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2005-01-11T13:06:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orwell on Chesterton", "in_reply_to": "<20050111184153.99593.qmail@web53510.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aqala wrote:\nI think some of this list's subscribers will benefit from reading George\nOrwell's opinion of G. K. Chesterton:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've never read Chesterton before, but his \"Lepanto\" (below) surely is \nhorrendously awful.\n\nWhite founts falling in the courts of the sun,\nAnd the Soldan of Byzantium is smiling as they run;\nThere is laughter like the fountains in that face of all men feared,\nIt stirs the forest darkness, the darkness of his beard,\nIt curls the blood-red crescent, the crescent of his lips,\nFor the inmost sea of all the earth is shaken with his ships.\nThey have dared the white republics up the capes of Italy,\nThey have dashed the Adriatic round the Lion of the Sea,\nAnd the Pope has cast his arms abroad for agony and loss,\nAnd called the kings of Christendom for swords about the Cross,\nThe cold queen of England is looking in the glass;\nThe shadow of the Valois is yawning at the Mass;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From evening isles fantastical rings faint the Spanish gun," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.\n\nDim drums throbbing, in the hills half heard,\nWhere only on a nameless throne a crownless prince has stirred,\nWhere, risen from a doubtful seat and half attainted stall,\nThe last knight of Europe takes weapons from the wall,\nThe last and lingering troubadour to whom the bird has sung,\nThat once went singing southward when all the world was young,\nIn that enormous silence, tiny and unafraid,\nComes up along the winding road the noise of the Crusade.\nStrong gongs groaning as the guns boom far,\nDon John of Austria is going to the war,\nStiff flags straining in the night-blasts cold\nIn the gloom black-purple, in the glint old-gold.\n\nTorchlight crimson on the copper kettle-drums,\nThen the tuckets, then the trumpets, then the cannon, and he comes.\nDon John laughing in the brave beard curled,\nSpurning of his stirrups like the throne of all the world,\nHolding his head up for a flag of all the free.\nLove-light of Spain-hurrah!\nDeath-light of Africa!\nDon John of Austria\nIs riding to the sea.\n\nMahound is in his paradise above the evening star,\n(Don John of Austria is going to the war.)\nHe moves a mighty turban on the timeless houri's knees,\nHis turban that is woven of the sunset and the seas.\nHe shakes the peacock gardens as he rises from his ease,\nAnd he strides among the tree-tops and is taller than the trees,\nAnd his voice through all the garden is a thunder sent to bring\nBlack Azrael and Ariel and Ammon on the wing.\nGiants and the Genii,\nMultiple of wing and eye,\nWhose strong obedience broke the sky\nWhen Solomon was king.\n\nThey rush in red and purple from the red clouds of the morn," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From temples where the yellow gods shut up their eyes in scorn;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They rise in green robes roaring from the green hells of the sea\nWhere fallen skies and evil hues and eyeless creatures be;\nOn them the sea-valves cluster and the grey sea-forests curl,\nSplashed with a splendid sickness, the sickness of the pearl;\nThey swell in sapphire smoke out of the blue cracks of the ground,-\nThey gather and they wonder and give worship to Mahound.\nAnd he saith, 'Break up the mountains where the hermit-folk can hide,\nAnd sift the red and silver sands lest bone of saint abide,\nAnd chase the Giaours flying night and day, not giving rest,\nFor that which was our trouble comes again out of the west.\nWe have set the seal of Solomon on all things under sun,\nOf knowledge and of sorrow and endurance of things done,\nBut noise is in the mountains, in the mountains, and I know\nThe voice that shook our palaces-four hundred years ago:\nIt is he that saith not 'Kismet'; it is he that knows not Fate;\nIt is Richard, it is Raymond, it is Godfrey at the gate!\nIt is he whose loss is laughter when he counts the wager worth,\nPut down your feet upon him, that our peace be on the earth.'\nFor he heard drums groaning and he heard guns jar,\n(Don John of Austria is going to the war.)\nSudden and still-hurrah!\nBolt from Iberia!\nDon John of Austria\nIs gone by Alcalar.\n\nSt Michael's on his mountain in the sea-roads of the north\n(Don John of Austria is girt and going forth.)\nWhere the grey seas glitter and the sharp tides shift\nAnd the sea folk labour and the red sails lift.\nHe shakes his lance of iron and he claps his wings of stone;\nThe noise is gone through Normandy; the noise is gone alone;\nThe North is full of tangled things and texts and aching eyes\nAnd dead is all the innocence of anger and surprise,\nAnd Christian killeth Christian in a narrow dusty room\nAnd Christian dreadeth Christ that hath a newer face of doom,\nAnd Christian hateth Mary that God kissed in Galilee,\nBut Don John of Austria is riding to the sea.\nDon John calling through the blast and the eclipse\nCrying with the trumpet, with the trumpet of his lips,\nTrumpet that sayeth ha!\nDomino gloria!\nDon John of Austria\nIs shouting to the ships.\n\nKing Philip's in his closet with the Fleece about his neck\n(Don Juan of Austria is armed upon the deck.)\nThe walls are hung with velvet that is black and soft as sin,\nAnd little dwarfs creep out of it and little dwarfs creep in.\nHe holds a crystal phial that has colours like the moon,\nHe touches, and it tingles, and he trembles very soon,\nAnd his face is as a fungus of a leprous white and grey\nLike plants in the high houses that are shuttered from the day,\nAnd death is in the phial; and the end of noble work,\nBut Don John of Austria has fired upon the Turk.\nDon John's hunting, and his hounds have bayed -\nBooms away past Italy the rumour of his raid\nGun upon gun, ha! ha!\nGun upon gun, hurrah!\nDon John of Austria\nHas loosed the cannonade.\n\nThe Pope was in his chapel before day or battle broke,\n(Don John of Austria is hidden in the smoke.)\nThe hidden room in man's house where God sits all the year,\nThe secret window whence the world looks small and very dear.\nHe sees as in a mirror on the monstrous twilight sea\nThe crescent of his cruel ships whose name is mystery;\nThey fling great shadows foe-wards, making Cross and Castle dark,\nThey veil the plum?d lions on the galley's of St. Mark;\nAnd above the ships are palaces of brown, black-bearded chiefs,\nAnd below the ships are prisons, where with multitudinous griefs,\nChristian captives sick and sunless, all a labouring race repines\nLike a race in sunken cities, like a nation in the mines.\nThey are lost like slaves that swat, and in the skies of morning hung\nThe stair-ways of the tallest gods when tyranny was young.\nThey are countless, voiceless, hopeless as those fallen or fleeing on\nBefore the high Kings' horses in the granite of Babylon.\nAnd many a one grows witless in his quiet room in hell\nWhere a yellow face looks inward through the lattice of his cell,\nAnd he finds his God forgotten, and he seeks no more a sign -\n(But Don John of Austria has burst the battle-line!)\nDon John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop,\nPurpling all the ocean like a bloody pirate's sloop,\nScarlet running over on the silvers and the golds,\nBreaking of the hatches up and bursting of the holds,\nThronging of the thousands up that labour under sea\nWhite for bliss and blind for sun and stunned for liberty.\nVivat Hispania!\nDomino Gloria!\nDon John of Austria\nHas set his people free!\n\nCervantes on his galley sets the sword back in the sheath\n(Don John of Austria rides homeward with a wreath.)\nAnd he sees across a weary land a straggling road in Spain,\nUpon which a lean and foolish knight forever rides in vain,\nAnd he smiles, but not as Sultans smile, and settles back the blade...\n(But Don John of Austria rides home from the Crusade.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<006c01c4f824$b602e290$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2005-01-11T13:30:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orwell on Chesterton", "in_reply_to": "<006901c4f821$63024980$e0416596@crunchynut>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: \"Andrew Bollen\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've never read Chesterton before, but his \"Lepanto\" (below) surely is\nhorrendously awful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't say it's _that_ bad. Like Kipling, if you encounter it at a\ncertain age, it's quite thrilling. It also works better if you recite it out\nloud; the alliteration and meter are stirring. Or at least I remember these\nimpressions from when I was a certain age. Check out _The Man Who Was\nThursday_, or a light dose of Father Brown if you want something by\nChesterton that you might enjoy more.\n\nOn other current topics...\n\nI'm not sure what aqala's point is, other than trolling, but Orwell could be\nimpressively vituperative, an English literary tradition which shows no sign\nof slackening. We should probably be grateful that he never encountered\nTolkien.\n\nI don't recall the paeans to gun ownership and supply-side economics in\nExodus from the Long Sun; however, Wolfe's comments on contemporary-ish\npolitics are reliably conservative, but his works, to me at least, seem less\nthan approving of corporate capitalism. I think he takes a more\n\"traditionalist\" position (akin to Tolkien's) than most of today's\nconservatives would find comfortable. He self-identifies as a \"conservative\nCatholic,\" doesn't he? That's a far different beast from a \"conservative\nProtestant,\" though they share some concerns, and a whole different phylum\nthan a \"libertarian,\" which is the predominant conservative strain in modern\nSF.\n\n-- Dave, aka Vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-11T13:48:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orwell on Chesterton", "in_reply_to": "<006c01c4f824$b602e290$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't recall the paeans to gun ownership and supply-side economics in\nExodus from the Long Sun; however, Wolfe's comments on contemporary-ish\npolitics are reliably conservative, but his works, to me at least, seem \nless than approving of corporate capitalism. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThere is no linkage between Catholic Conservatism and a support for \n\"corporate capitalism\". Quite the reverse. \"Conservatism\" in its origin \nstands for the conserving the traditonal rights of the little guy against \nthe big guy who would enslave him, whether banker, lawyer or landowner: and \nthe Catholic church was a pillar of this conservation and its one effective \narm. \n\nBut you'll never understand if I call it Conservatism, because neither \nconservatism nor the Catholic Church are trying to conserve any of this \ntoday \n\n \n\n\nWhere do I begin? \n\nI hate to say it, but I realise again just how very much Wolfe owes to \nChesterton. \n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-11T13:50:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orwell on Chesterton", "in_reply_to": "<006c01c4f824$b602e290$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Lebling writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andrew Bollen\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've never read Chesterton before, but his \"Lepanto\" (below) surely is\nhorrendously awful." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wouldn't say it's _that_ bad. Like Kipling, if you encounter it at a\ncertain age, it's quite thrilling. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n\nI loved LEPANTO, and I like THE BALLAD OF THE WHITE HORSE even better." } ] }, { "message_id": "<008001c4f828$3f0cf2d0$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2005-01-11T13:55:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orwell on Chesterton", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andy Robertson\" \nThere is no linkage between Catholic Conservatism and a support for\n\"corporate capitalism\". Quite the reverse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which was precisely my point, if you read beyond the part of my message you\nquoted.\n\nAs for \"Lepanto,\" I still get a bit of a thrill from it, even now, but\nnothing like what it did for me when I was about 15.\n\n-- Dave, aka Vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "<145178930550.20050111225536@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanisław Bocian", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2005-01-11T14:03:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orwell on Chesterton", "in_reply_to": "<20050111184153.99593.qmail@web53510.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 7:41:52 PM, aqala at yahoo.com wrote:\n\nayc> I think some of this list’s subscribers will benefit from reading George\nayc> Orwell’s opinion of G. K. Chesterton:\n\nayc> -------------------quote-------------------\nayc> ...political Catholicism. Its most outstanding exponent—though he was\nayc> perhaps an extreme case rather than a typical one—was G. K. Chesterton.\nayc> Chesterton was a writer of considerable talent who whose to suppress both\nayc> his sensibilities and his intellectual honesty in the cause of Roman\nayc> Catholic propaganda. During the last twenty years or so of his life, his\nayc> entire output was in reality an endless repetition of the same thing,\nayc> under its laboured cleverness as simple and boring as ‘Great is Diana of\nayc> the Ephesians.’ Every book that he wrote, every scrap of dialogue, had to\nayc> demonstrate beyond the possibility of mistake the superiority of the\nayc> Catholic over the Protestant or the pagan. But Chesterton was not content\nayc> to think of this superiority as merely intellectual or spiritual: it had\nayc> to be translated into terms of national prestige and military power, which\nayc> entailed an ignorant idealisation of the Latin countries, especially\nayc> France. Chesterton had not lived long in France, and his picture of it—as\nayc> a land of Catholic peasants incessantly singing the MARSEILLAISE over\nayc> glasses of red wine—had about as much relation to reality as CHU CHIN CHOW\nayc> has to everyday life in Baghdad. And with this went not only an enormous\nayc> overestimation of French military power (both before and after 1914-18 he\nayc> maintained that France, by itself, was stronger than Germany), but a silly\nayc> and vulgar glorification of the actual process of war. Chesterton’s\nayc> battle poems, such as Lepanto or The Ballad of Saint Barbara, make The\nayc> Charge of the Light Brigade read like a pacifist tract: they are perhaps\nayc> the most tawdry bits of bombast to be found in our language. The\nayc> interesting thing is that had the romantic rubbish which he habitually\nayc> wrote about France and the French army been written by somebody else about\nayc> Britain and the British army, he would have been the first to jeer. In\nayc> home politics he was a Little Englander, a true hater of jingoism and\nayc> imperialism, and according to his lights a true friend of democracy. Yet\nayc> when he looked outwards into the international field, he could forsake his\nayc> principles without even noticing he was doing so. Thus, his almost\nayc> mystical belief in the virtues of democracy did not prevent him from\nayc> admiring Mussolini. Mussolini had destroyed the representative government\nayc> and the freedom of the press for which Chesterton had struggled so hard at\nayc> home, but Mussolini was an Italian and had made Italy strong, and that\nayc> settled the matter. Nor did Chesterton ever find a word to say about\nayc> imperialism and the conquest of coloured races when they were practised by\nayc> Italians or Frenchmen. His hold on reality, his literary taste, and even\nayc> to some extent his moral sense, were dislocated as soon as his\nayc> nationalistic [Nationalism as defined by GO and not the standard meaning]\nayc> loyalties were involved.\n\nayc> [From NOTES ON NATIONALISM (1945)]\nayc> -------------------quote-------------------\n\nOrwell, Notes on Nationalism\n\nhttp://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/nationalism.html\n\nThe whole Orwell's essay is very interesting, even if the quoted\nfragment is wrong. (I presumed not to quote or comment the gratuitous\ninsult of the poster). It is necessary to remember that Orwell were a\ntruly believing socialist. He went to Spain in order to fight against\nFranco. Being an honest and extremely intelligent man, he, seeing\ncommunism in action, wholly repudiated it. His sympathies, however,\nremained the same - he had no patience for religion in general or\nCatholicism in particular.\n\nThe essay mentions some very interessing points, still relevant, even\nvery relevant today. It has, however, a few flaws.\n\nI am sorry to say that this essay shows that Orwell's rhetorical\nmethod remains still typically socialist - he defines a word, which\nusually means one thing, as quite another, and then accuses others of\nit. Here he defines nationalism not as a unreansoning support of one\nnation, but as a unreasoning support or condemnation of anything.(note\n1) I would guess that Orwell means here something like \"fanaticism.\"\n\nNationalism usually means supporting a nation, right or wrong. Of this\nChesterton was obviously not guilty. He was an English patriot, but he\nwas opposed to colonialism and any agression.\n\nI have read a lot of Chesterton works, although not all. Orwell is\nright that nearly all of his work is in greater or lesser degree an\napology of Christianity and Catholicism. He, since he was not\npersuaded by it, have every right to think Chesteron's cleverness\nlaboured. I happen to think otherwise.\n\nI have not seen in Chesterton's writing any support of Mussolini or\nFrench or Italian colonialism. He certainly condemned British\ncolonialism, and can perhaps be excused for not criticising everything\neverywhere. He had also not very much time to criticise invasion of\nEthiopia (note 2).\n\nThe essay, among many very true opinions, contains some which are\nfrankly astonishing, eg the sentence immediately preceding the text\nquoted above. It has unhappily not been quoted by the first poster.\n\n \"Ten or twenty years ago, the form of\nnationalism most closely corresponding to Communism today was\npolitical Catholicism. Its most outstanding exponent -- though he was\nperhaps an extreme case rather than a typical one -- was G.K.\nChesterton.\"\n\nThat unusual theory of Orwell explains, I think, his opinions about\nChesterton. If Catholicism is a kind of communism, it is obvious that\nbelievers in it should be hunted and destroyed, or at least boycotted.\nI personally think Catholicism to be wholly opposed to Communism (I\nagree that it is not the point Orwell was making.)\n\nAs for \"political Catholicism\" - I again presume that he thinks about\nthe movement in France associated with Charles Maurras and Action\nFracaise. It is difficult to connect it with Chesterton, however -\nMaurras was an agnostic most of his life, and supported the Church\nonly as a necessary source of order in society.\n\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Maurras\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Fran%E7aise\n\nOrwell makes also a few factual mistakes. Chesterton did not support\ndemocracy. He did support self-government, but it is not the same. His\npolitical theory was quite similar to Tolkien's, it could be described\nas anarchism,even sometimes monarchistic anarchism, with strong local\nself-government.\n\n I also wonder whether Orwell did not confuse Chesterton with Hilaire\n Belloc, his friend. Belloc certainly supported Mussolini, of course\n only before the war. As he was a Frenchman, he certainly thought\n highly of France, especially so called \"France profonde\", which\n Orwell seems heartily to dislike.\n\n\nAs for the the Lepanto, I think it very good verse - but it is\ncertainly enthusiastic.(note 3). I am also not sure that Orwell\nactually read it - because according to his theory Chesterton should\nthink King Philip of Spain an ideal king - since he was a Catholic and\na famous enemy of Protestants. If he did think so, he certainly hid it\nwell.\n\n\n\n- Note 1\n\n\n\"Notes on Nationalism\n\nMay, 1945\n\n Somewhere or other Byron makes use of the French word longeur, and\n remarks in passing that though in England we happen not to have the\n word, we have the thing in considerable profusion. In the same way,\n there is a habit of mind which is now so widespread that it affects\n our thinking on nearly every subject, but which has not yet been\n given a name. As the nearest existing equivalent I have chosen the\n word \"nationalism\", but it will be seen in a moment that I am not\n using it in quite the ordinary sense, if only because the emotion I\n am speaking about does not always attach itself to what is called a\n nation -- that is, a single race or a geographical area. It can\n attach itself to a church or a class, or it may work in a merely\n negative sense, against something or other and without the need for\n any positive object of loyalty.\n\nBy \"nationalism\" I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human\nbeings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of\nmillions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled\n\"good\" or \"bad.\" But secondly -- and this is much more important -- I\nmean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other\nunit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty\nthan that of advancing its interests.Nationalism is not to be confused\nwith patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that\nany definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a\ndistinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas\nare involved. By \"patriotism\" I mean devotion to a particular place\nand a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the\nworld but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its\nnature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the\nother hand, is inseperable from the desire for power. The abiding\npurpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more\nprestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he\nhas chosen to sink his own individuality. \"\n\n\n- note 2\n\n\nShort chronology of Italy's intervention in Ethiopia\n\n On Dec. 5, 1934, a skirmish at Wal Wal (Ualval) involving an Italian\n garrison 80 miles inside the Ethiopian border was used by Mussolini\n as a pretext for demanding compensation and preparing for war.\n\n Jan. 3, 1935 - Hailie Selassie appeals to League Anglo-French\nagreement excluding Italy from Ethiopia\n\n Oct. 2, 1935, Mussolini ordered the bombing of Adowa by planes and\n the beginning of the invasion of Ethiopia by Marshal Badoglio Oct. 3\n who was authorized to use poison mustard gas and destroy civilian\n villages.\n\n Oct. 7 - League declared Italy the aggressor\n\n Nov. 18 - Leagues sanctions begin arms embargo, financial embargo,\nnonimportation of Ital. goods\n\nFeb. 1936 - League could not agree on critical oil sanctions\n\nMay 5 - Italy occupied Addis Abeba - annexed all Ethiopia May 9\n\nJune 14, 1936, Chesterton dies.\n\nI have met with opinion, (eg Paul Johnson in his history of the XX\ncentury) that ineffectual sanctions of the League of Nations did\nnothing for Ethiopia and caused Mussolini to ally himself to Hitler.\n\n\n- note 3\n\nLepanto\n\n G.K.Chesterton \n \n\nWhite founts falling in the Courts of the sun, \nAnd the Soldan of Byzantium is smiling as they run; \nThere is laughter like the fountains in that face of all men feared, \nIt stirs the forest darkness, the darkness of his beard; \nIt curls the blood-red crescent, the crescent of his lips; \nFor the inmost sea of all the earth is shaken with his ships. \nThey have dared the white republics up the capes of Italy, \nThey have dashed the Adriatic round the Lion of the Sea, \nAnd the Pope has cast his arms abroad for agony and loss, \nAnd called the kings of Christendom for swords about the Cross. \nThe cold queen of England is looking in the glass; \nThe shadow of the Valois is yawning at the Mass; " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From evening isles fantastical rings faint the Spanish gun, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun. \n\nDim drums throbbing, in the hills half heard, \nWhere only on a nameless throne a crownless prince has stirred, \nWhere, risen from a doubtful seat and half attainted stall, \nThe last knight of Europe takes weapons from the wall, \nThe last and lingering troubadour to whom the bird has sung, \nThat once went singing southward when all the world was young. \nIn that enormous silence, tiny and unafraid, \nComes up along a winding road the noise of the Crusade. \nStrong gongs groaning as the guns boom far, \nDon John of Austria is going to the war, \nStiff flags straining in the night-blasts cold \nIn the gloom black-purple, in the glint old-gold, \nTorchlight crimson on the copper kettle-drums, \nThen the tuckets, then the trumpets, then the cannon, and he comes. \nDon John laughing in the brave beard curled, \nSpurning of his stirrups like the thrones of all the world, \nHolding his head up for a flag of all the free. \nLove-light of Spain--hurrah! \nDeath-light of Africa! \nDon John of Austria \nIs riding to the sea. \n\nMahound is in his paradise above the evening star, \n(Don John of Austria is going to the war.) \nHe moves a mighty turban on the timeless houri's knees, \nHis turban that is woven of the sunsets and the seas. \nHe shakes the peacock gardens as he rises from his ease, \nAnd he strides among the tree-tops and is taller than the trees; \nAnd his voice through all the garden is a thunder sent to bring \nBlack Azrael and Ariel and Ammon on the wing. \nGiants and the Genii, \nMultiplex of wing and eye, \nWhose strong obedience broke the sky \nWhen Solomon was king. \n\nThey rush in red and purple from the red clouds of the morn, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the temples where the yellow gods shut up their eyes in scorn; " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They rise in green robes roaring from the green hells of the sea \nWhere fallen skies and evil hues and eyeless creatures be, \nOn them the sea-valves cluster and the grey sea-forests curl, \nSplashed with a splendid sickness, the sickness of the pearl; \nThey swell in sapphire smoke out of the blue cracks of the ground,-- \nThey gather and they wonder and give worship to Mahound. \nAnd he saith, \"Break up the mountains where the hermit-folk can hide, \nAnd sift the red and silver sands lest bone of saint abide, \nAnd chase the Giaours flying night and day, not giving rest, \nFor that which was our trouble comes again out of the west. \nWe have set the seal of Solomon on all things under sun, \nOf knowledge and of sorrow and endurance of things done. \nBut a noise is in the mountains, in the mountains, and I know \nThe voice that shook our palaces--four hundred years ago: \nIt is he that saith not 'Kismet'; it is he that knows not Fate; \nIt is Richard, it is Raymond, it is Godfrey at the gate! \nIt is he whose loss is laughter when he counts the wager worth, \nPut down your feet upon him, that our peace be on the earth.\" \nFor he heard drums groaning and he heard guns jar, \n(Don John of Austria is going to the war.) \nSudden and still--hurrah! \nBolt from Iberia! \nDon John of Austria \nIs gone by Alcalar. \n\nSt. Michaels on his Mountain in the sea-roads of the north \n(Don John of Austria is girt and going forth.) \nWhere the grey seas glitter and the sharp tides shift \nAnd the sea-folk labour and the red sails lift. \nHe shakes his lance of iron and he claps his wings of stone; \nThe noise is gone through Normandy; the noise is gone alone; \nThe North is full of tangled things and texts and aching eyes, \nAnd dead is all the innocence of anger and surprise, \nAnd Christian killeth Christian in a narrow dusty room, \nAnd Christian dreadeth Christ that hath a newer face of doom, \nAnd Christian hateth Mary that God kissed in Galilee,-- \nBut Don John of Austria is riding to the sea. \nDon John calling through the blast and the eclipse \nCrying with the trumpet, with the trumpet of his lips, \nTrumpet that sayeth _ha_! \n Domino gloria! \nDon John of Austria \nIs shouting to the ships. \n\nKing Philip's in his closet with the Fleece about his neck \n(Don John of Austria is armed upon the deck.) \nThe walls are hung with velvet that is black and soft as sin, \nAnd little dwarfs creep out of it and little dwarfs creep in. \nHe holds a crystal phial that has colours like the moon, \nHe touches, and it tingles, and he trembles very soon, \nAnd his face is as a fungus of a leprous white and grey \nLike plants in the high houses that are shuttered from the day, \nAnd death is in the phial and the end of noble work, \nBut Don John of Austria has fired upon the Turk. \nDon John's hunting, and his hounds have bayed-- \nBooms away past Italy the rumour of his raid. \nGun upon gun, ha! ha! \nGun upon gun, hurrah! \nDon John of Austria \nHas loosed the cannonade. \n\nThe Pope was in his chapel before day or battle broke, \n(Don John of Austria is hidden in the smoke.) \nThe hidden room in man's house where God sits all the year, \nThe secret window whence the world looks small and very dear. \nHe sees as in a mirror on the monstrous twilight sea \nThe crescent of his cruel ships whose name is mystery; \nThey fling great shadows foe-wards, making Cross and Castle dark, \nThey veil the plume graved lions on the galleys of St. Mark; \nAnd above the ships are palaces of brown, black-bearded chiefs, \nAnd below the ships are prisons, where with multitudinous griefs, \nChristian captives sick and sunless, all a labouring race repines \nLike a race in sunken cities, like a nation in the mines. \nThey are lost like slaves that sweat, and in the skies of morning hung \nThe stair-ways of the tallest gods when tyranny was young. \nThey are countless, voiceless, hopeless as those fallen or fleeing on \nBefore the high Kings' horses in the granite of Babylon. \nAnd many a one grows witless in his quiet room in hell \nWhere a yellow face looks inward through the lattice of his cell, \nAnd he finds his God forgotten, and he seeks no more a sign-- \n(But Don John of Austria has burst the battle-line!) \nDon John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop, \nPurpling all the ocean like a bloody pirate's sloop, \nScarlet running over on the silvers and the golds, \nBreaking of the hatches up and bursting of the holds, \nThronging of the thousands up that labour under sea \nWhite for bliss and blind for sun and stunned for liberty. \n\nVivat Hispania! \nDomino Gloria! \nDon John of Austria \nHas set his people free! \n\nCervantes on his galley sets the sword back in the sheath \n(Don John of Austria rides homeward with a wreath.) \nAnd he sees across a weary land a straggling road in Spain, \nUp which a lean and foolish knight for ever rides in vain, \nAnd he smiles, but not as Sultans smile, and settles back the blade.... \n(But Don John of Austria rides home from the Crusade.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Stanislaus Bocian" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-11T14:09:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orwell on Chesterton", "in_reply_to": "<008001c4f828$3f0cf2d0$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I realised. Sorry Dave, I was addressing the list as a whole not \nyou. My bad " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andy Robertson\" \nThere is no linkage between Catholic Conservatism and a support for\n\"corporate capitalism\". Quite the reverse.\n\nWhich was precisely my point, if you read beyond the part of my message you\nquoted." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-11T14:25:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orwell on Chesterton", "in_reply_to": "<145178930550.20050111225536@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stanis?aw Bocian writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That unusual theory of Orwell explains, I think, his opinions about\nChesterton. If Catholicism is a kind of communism, it is obvious that\nbelievers in it should be hunted and destroyed, or at least boycotted.\nI personally think Catholicism to be wholly opposed to Communism (I\nagree that it is not the point Orwell was making.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nSave that very fine essay, Sir!!! Bravo " } ] } ] }