{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4298", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4298, "subject": "Ending of The Knight", "messages": 9, "voices": 7, "first": "2005-01-11T11:57:34+00:00", "last": "2005-01-13T10:10:12+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<03F2E708-640B-11D9-90D2-000A95D8A1EC@ou.edu>", "from": { "name": "Kieran Mullen", "address": "kieran at ou.edu" }, "date": "2005-01-11T11:57:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ending of The Knight", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Is this the right venue for discussions of The Wizard-Knight series?\n\n Very minor spoilers:\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n A small note about the ending of \"The Knight.\" Able/Art ends up \nwith Disiri in Aelfrice when Michael comes to call. I think this is a \nreference to the story of Arthur ending up in Avalon, ready to return \nto England when the Land is under a great threat. (Admittedly Able is \nnot simply equivalent to Arthur.)\n\n Do we have a list of FAQ (perhaps even with a few answers...) for \nthe series? I have a few.\n\n Kieran Mullen" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00d601c4f818$d8d4e130$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-11T12:05:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ending of The Knight", "in_reply_to": "<03F2E708-640B-11D9-90D2-000A95D8A1EC@ou.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do we have a list of FAQ (perhaps even with a few answers...) for\nthe series? I have a few." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome Kieren,\n\nYou'll find everything said recently about The Wizard Knight at:\nhttp://listserver.dreamhost.com/pipermail/urth-urth.net/\n\nIf you have a FAQ, please post it. :-)\n\n\nThe Wizard Knight series? I consider this a single novel that is meant to\nbe read that way. In a couple years it will no doubt be offered that way.\nUnlike the Latro books, I don't consider it a \"series\". Does anyone disagree\nwith that? Does anyone think the books were intended to be ultimately read\nas self-standing novels?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002401c4f836$d8948130$55fcaccf@GWB>", "from": { "name": "Gregg", "address": "gwbest328 at rcn.com" }, "date": "2005-01-11T15:39:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ending of The Knight", "in_reply_to": "<00d601c4f818$d8d4e130$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Message: 9\nDate: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:05:05 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Ending of The Knight\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <00d601c4f818$d8d4e130$4c1e4b0a at vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain;\tcharset=\"iso-8859-1\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Wizard Knight series? I consider this a single novel that is meant to\nbe read that way. In a couple years it will no doubt be offered that way.\nUnlike the Latro books, I don't consider it a \"series\". Does anyone\ndisagree with that? Does anyone think the books were intended to be\nultimately read as self-standing novels?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr. Wolfe said at Windycon this past year that he considers The Wizard\nKnight to be two books, but he conceded that \"everyone else\" considers it to\nbe one book. Another case of his intentions being misunderstood, it would\nseem." } ] }, { "message_id": "<016501c4f839$505134a0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-01-11T15:57:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ending of The Knight", "in_reply_to": "<002401c4f836$d8948130$55fcaccf@GWB>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mr. Wolfe said at Windycon this past year that he considers The Wizard\nKnight to be two books, but he conceded that \"everyone else\" considers it\nto\nbe one book. Another case of his intentions being misunderstood, it would\nseem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm. Well, okay. The Knight ends rather precipitously and unsatisfactorily\nfor a stand-alone and the \"series\" is called \"The Wizard Knight\" which the\nopposite of the actual order. What can I say? Should I presume \"everyone\nelse\" includes his editor? ;-)\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002001c4f8fc$01eec9d0$55fcaccf@GWB>", "from": { "name": "Gregg", "address": "gwbest328 at rcn.com" }, "date": "2005-01-12T15:11:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ending of The Knight", "in_reply_to": "<016501c4f839$505134a0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Message: 2\nDate: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:57:31 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Ending of The Knight\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <016501c4f839$505134a0$4c1e4b0a at vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain;\tcharset=\"iso-8859-1\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mr. Wolfe said at Windycon this past year that he considers The Wizard\nKnight to be two books, but he conceded that \"everyone else\" considers it\nto be one book. Another case of his intentions being misunderstood, it\nwould seem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm. Well, okay. The Knight ends rather precipitously and unsatisfactorily\nfor a stand-alone and the \"series\" is called \"The Wizard Knight\" which the\nopposite of the actual order. What can I say? Should I presume \"everyone\nelse\" includes his editor? ;-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "~ Crush" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He didn't offer a definition of who \"everyone else\" is to him. He didn't\nseem particularly happy or unhappy that he is the only one who thinks The\nWizard Knight is two books, either. It just seemed obvious to him, but we\naren't getting it. A familiar situation for us, eh?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050112232325.42323.qmail@web20026.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-12T15:23:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ending of The Knight", "in_reply_to": "<002001c4f8fc$01eec9d0$55fcaccf@GWB>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- Gregg wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He didn't offer a definition of who \"everyone else\"\nis to him. He didn't\nseem particularly happy or unhappy that he is the\nonly one who thinks The\nWizard Knight is two books, either. It just seemed\nobvious to him, but we\naren't getting it. A familiar situation for us, eh?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't be so quick to accept Wolfe's statements at\nface value here (or anywhere else, for that matter). \nWolfe, like Able, holds loyalty to be a prime virtue,\nand whatever went on between him and TOR in the\nprocess of bringing TWK to publication, he is likely\nto regard it as private, and would probably not say\nanything publically that might seem, whether to him or\nto others, disloyal to his longtime editor and friend,\nDavid Hartwell. But it seems unlikely to me that an\nartist of Wolfe's caliber could consider The Wizard to\nbe a book capable of standing on its own, without The\nKnight. What I believe to be the case is that Tor\nsplit this book in two for commercial reasons, as they\nhave done with a number of other books they consider\ntoo long (many of which, coincidentally or not, are\nalso edited by Mr. Hartwell). And let's not forget\nhis role in the expansion of Wolfe's original Torturer\nms.\n\npaul\n\n\n\n=====\nhttp://www.sff.net/people/stilskin\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<016f01c4f96f$e54de530$3f87d2d1@VALUED7B9600FA>", "from": { "name": "Alan Lewis", "address": "alanarc at frontiernet.net" }, "date": "2005-01-13T05:00:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ending of The Knight", "in_reply_to": "<002401c4f836$d8948130$55fcaccf@GWB>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Wizard Knight series? I consider this a single novel that is meant to\nbe read that way. In a couple years it will no doubt be offered that way.\nUnlike the Latro books, I don't consider it a \"series\". Does anyone\ndisagree with that? Does anyone think the books were intended to be\nultimately read as self-standing novels?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that I have finally caught up, I can contribute to TWK discussion. I \ntake exception to the terms posed in this question. Since Knight and Wizard \nthe books in the same series, by no means should we expect them to read like \nself-standing novels. If they were, then I would argue they are not so much \nbooks in a series, but books set in the same book-world, like Long Sun/Short \nSun are.\n\nOf course length of material inevitably has a part to play in this. No \ndoubt once Wolfe realized his story was going to take at least x many words, \nhe would have realized he was probably looking to two books for all intents \nand purposes. But I would argue he then wrote them that way, that there are \nfundamental differences between the two books. For one thing, Able \npre-Skai, and Able post-Skai are different characters. In the first book he \nis the true neophyte, a complete outsider; in the second book he is (as \nessentially an Overcyn) the ultimate insider, a pro. In Arthurian terms, in \nthe first book he is Parsifal, and in the 2nd he is alternatively \nLancelot/Arthur. In each book he complains at different times that he's \n\"just a kid.\" In the first book we believe this is true, even though the \nother characters treat these statements as ironic self-reflection -- when he \ncomplains so in the Wizard, I think we take those statements the same way, \nand aren't buying him as a kid anymore.\n\nAlso the narrative structure is different in Wizard, with considerable \nnarrative occurring outside his POV.\n\nSo I agree with GW on this one, even though it seems like I have little to \nno company.\n\nAlan " } ] }, { "message_id": "<41E68797.6060603@bitterman.net>", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2005-01-13T06:37:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ending of The Knight", "in_reply_to": "<20050112232325.42323.qmail@web20026.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "stilskin wrote:\n\n--- Gregg wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He didn't offer a definition of who \"everyone else\"\nis to him. He didn't\nseem particularly happy or unhappy that he is the\nonly one who thinks The\nWizard Knight is two books, either. It just seemed\nobvious to him, but we\naren't getting it. A familiar situation for us, eh?\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wouldn't be so quick to accept Wolfe's statements at\nface value here (or anywhere else, for that matter). \n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took this as a joke. \"Everyone else\" thinks it's one book for \nliterary reasons.\nHe thinks it's two books because, well, physically there are two books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "paul\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Enamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173705011310107c878393@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-13T10:10:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ending of The Knight", "in_reply_to": "<016f01c4f96f$e54de530$3f87d2d1@VALUED7B9600FA>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:00:44 -0500, Alan Lewis wrote:\nSo I agree with GW on this one, even though it seems like I have little to\nno company." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely not \"no\" - I completely agree with your reasoning and your\nconclusion." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nFreedom has no barcode.\n --J.G. Ballard" } ] } ] }