{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4334", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4334, "subject": "5HC", "messages": 12, "voices": 6, "first": "2005-01-26T10:25:22+00:00", "last": "2005-01-30T14:43:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20050126182518.73681.qmail@web25704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jim Raylor", "address": "rjraylor at yahoo.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-26T10:25:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: 5HC", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Judith\nYou've raised a lot of interesting points and I am\nkicking myself for not spotting the 'When Adam delved\nand Eve span' reference which I am sure is valid.\nI think one major theme which helps understand this\nbook is the question of what it means to be human.\nFor instance :\nChimpanzees create art, can talk if taught sign\nlanguage, use tools and exhibit social learning.\nDo we have the right to treat them as animals?\nIn Roman times to be a full 'human' you had to be a\nman and a freeborn citizen of Rome.\nIn 212 A.D. under the Severian Dynasty this was\nextended to all free men in the Roman Empire, a\nmassive breakthrough in emancipation, of course women,\nchildren (under 15) slaves and barbarians were\nexcluded.\nSlavery was often justified with the argument that\nthese blacks do not have souls, they are not real\npeople.\nWhat of the dead? Are they human?\nOr elephants or whales? Any dog or cat owner soon\nlearns to treat their pet as a member of the family,\nor they should not be allowed to keep animals.\nAncient people seem to have seen all animals and many\nother things (trees, caves, wind, the sun and moon,\nstars, the sea etc.) as having spirits as we do.\n\nOK now I will annotate the points you have raised\nwhich are all very interesting and valid to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " --- Broceliande27533 at aol.com wrote: \nDear Jim\n \nRead 5hc in Orbit ed" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n***** Was it the same do you know? I would love to\nread his other early works... once I finish with this\none!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and then all three novellas — c\n1975 (in second hand \nQuartet ed.) Read once or twice in intervening years\nand then came back to Wolfe \nthis summer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt has to be re-read and re-read I believe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Read Cave Canem and urth archives on\n5HC. Am going through book \nfor about third time in six months annotating as I\ngo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not read either Proust of Kafka although understand\nthat VRT v Kafkaesque." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "VRT is definitely the most Kafkaesque. I have read all\nKafka's published work.\nVRT contains references to The Trial, America, The\nCastle, Metamorphosis, In the Penal Colony and even\nhis collected letters. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Read Ancient Mariner at school 10 zillion years ago." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Re-read it and look for whales.\nIt's also full of Christian Symbolism and Coleridge\nhid references to his other poems in the text.\nhttp://etext.lib.virginia.edu/stc/Coleridge/poems/Rime_Ancient_Mariner.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I assumed that the quote at \nthe beginning was relevant to the question of No\n5's name (and that of M. \nMillion and Maitre), (see Archives passim and\nBorski) as is the ref in the final \nsection to the \"iron dog with his three wolf\nheads.\" On some things I \ndisagree v strongly with Borski" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Borski's major deficiency is that he sees as a\npipe as a pipe.\n\nCeci n'est pas une pipe\n\nMany of his insights are valid. I don't buy his\ngenealogy or his maps, but Hitchcock (Patricia\nHighsmith) Circumcision, Homosexuality, Hell and many\nother points are valid.\nI think the Ascian/Asian connection and the references\nto elephants are something he has completely missed.\n\nUnfortunately Borski, when he sees a broken puzzle as\na pair of shoes or a surgical device, seems to stop\nlooking and misses Babbage's difference engine and Ada\nLovelace. Elgar's Enigma variations one of which is\nallegedly about a dog, The Enigma code and Alan Turing\netc etc.\n\nI seem to be in the minority in reading this as a\ngreat Korean War novel, and a collection of children's\nstories etc" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(on others I agree\nor am neutral): the evidence for \nthe name is I think overwhelming." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes... but...\nI think the book was grown from his own name Gene\n(Rodman) Wolfe\nGene is homonym for 'Jean' (a girl's name in English)\nwhich is french for 'John', Jacques is French for\nJames.\n'Jack' is a variant of John. Ivan is the Russian form,\nthe hero of all the old stories,\nThe origin of the name Gene is Eugene.\nFemale form Eugenia.\nGene also gives us Genetics and Genesis etc etc\nI laughed when I found John Wolfe-Barry " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nQuite apart from my annotation I am amusing myself\nwith an analysis of the \nevidence (internally in the book that is) (1) for\nthe existence of the abos or \notherwise, and " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he is suggesting the Abos evolved into us.\n\n(2) whether rather than Victor" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "having replaced /become Marsch, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the murder scene is written (in all three\nnovels) to allow any of the participants (named or\nimplied) to be valid suspects.\nFor example perhaps the prisoner is the shape-shifting\nabo cat-girl, imitating the dead anthropologist!\nWhen I get the bottom of this mystery I will be able\nto move on to something else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marsch has replaced/become Victor: after all that is\nthe reverse of Veil's \nhypothesis and may be relevant to \"Liev's\npostpostulate\" about which there has \nbeen a great deal of debate. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Levi-Strauss's structural anthropology is hard to read\nbut it is highly relevant here, I believe.\nI have always considered my sister to be a better\nwriter than I.\nShe alerted me to look for famous women in history in\nthe book and she has not even read it!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Why the French? Does that have any particular\nmeaning? Vietnam is \ninteresting, but I was struck by echoes in the whole\nof the book of the French \ninvolvement over all of North America and the\nCaribbean. What about General Wolfe and \nQuebec (I know nothing about this period of\nhistory)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ". \nThe French and the British had a huge influence on the\nworld in Colonial times. Much of Africa is still\nFrancophone.\nThe contemporary reference to France is the Vietnam\nconnection.\nBut you are right there are massive clues to the\nHistory of North America.\nGeneva was a Celtic town and it is built around a cave\ninhabited since prehistoric times.\nRome and New York were built on Marshes drained by the\nEtruscans (religious engineers) and the French.\nThe Acadians ended up in Cajun Country. Wetlands.\nThe Huguenots and Acadians are worth investigating.\nhttp://huguenot.netnation.com/general/huguenot.htm\nhttp://www.valleyweb.com/acadians/\nJean de Loup is the Loup-Garou of Cajun myth.\nIt also fits in well with my unpopular 'Anne of Green\nGables' Theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why the reference ot the family in the photograph?\nWhy Celtic (I have an \ninchoate theory about that?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nBack to AoGG in my mind, Anne's red hair and\ngreen-grey eyes hint at a Celtic origin. Her mother\ndied before she was three months old.\nThere is also a wicked pun on Wales/Whales implied I\nbelieve.\nThe Celts are another vanished race who are alive and\nwell thank you very much. Many went to America.\nI could say more but I am interested in your inchoate\nversion and do not want to impose my beliefs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is the long house\nin the photograph?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read it as a row of terraced houses. In Cork for\nexample, you often find streets where each house is as\ndifferent from its neighbour as you could imagine, \nthough they share an internal wall. \nBut sticking my neck out again I would suggest it is a\nreference to the architectural folly of Port Meirion\n(My Prisoner theory)\n'The Prisoner' was aired on TV in Canada (near\nIllinois) in 1967 before it was even shown in the UK.\nThomas Disch (another of Knight's protegees), who\nlater wrote a book about Number 6 was one of the\nwriters involved in the production of this cult\nclassic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One last thought for the moment where I have\nformulated a clear opinion.\n \nI was thinking about the question of tool\nuse/inability to use tools. Again a \nlot of debate in the archives about this and\nevolutionary theory: Dollo's \nhypothesis and so on. All clearly relevant. But GW\nbeing GW there are likely to \nbe more shades of meaning. (It's been suggested that\nthe abos had no opposable \nthumb but that can't be right I think: they couldn't\nhave done the things that \nthey are described as doing and I read the inability\nas being some kind of \nmental/psychological/conceptual inability.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe GW may still have problems with his hands\nand leg from his childhood Polio. Monkeys were used in\nexperiments that led to a cure, poor crippled monkeys.\nTool use is taken as a determinant of intelligence in\nanimals and man. \nInterestingly enough the prehistoric ancestor of dogs\nand cats had a semi-opposable fifth toe on its\nforepaws.\nhttp://www.kerwoodwolf.com/EVOLUTION.htm\n\nGene joked once in an interview that when he wasn't\nwriting he enjoyed shovelling snow. (whilst reading\n'Cat in the Hat'?) In Suess' classic the snow turns\npink I believe. Rosy... Rougette, as the french say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nThere is that passage at the end of Dr Hagsmith \"the\ntest that the French are \nsupposed to have applied at the ford called Running\nBlood-stopped every man \nthat passed and made him dig with a shovel\" (I think\nthat the Running Blood \nford is the Rougette river that painted Marsch's\nboots and Victor's legs (with \nred mud presumably) on April 10th)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it was blood.\nBack to my obscure 'Ho Te Que - Tiger Lady of the\nDelta' Theory.\nShe died in 1965.\n\n\nAaaargh! But you are also right and I should have\nspotted this before. Anne in Green Gables is obsessed\nwith why the roads there are all red... like her hair.\nA rougette is also a radish (reddish?)\nFrequently GW seems to juxtapose a positive and a\nnegative interpretation... Was the river running with\nblood or just red clay soil (excellent for\nagriculture).\n\nI am not sure how seriously I should look for drug \nreferences in GW, but given the times and the\nreferences to hallucinogens, it may be appropriate.\nI was reminded of Terry Southern's story book 'Red\nDirt Marijuana and Other Tastes'. published in 1967.\nhttp://www.litkicks.com/People/TerrySouthern.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nBorski thinks that is a reference to a massacre. \nWhen I first read it that \nwas how it felt to me: and there's an echo of\nHolocaust victims and perhaps \nothers digging their own graves. (Borski also thinks\nMr D `\"might be fifteen \nyears ago, might be more. Our years are longer here-\ndid you know that?\" is \nreference to that massacre but I think he was\ntalking about Victor's birth/age)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Korean War started in 1950, Vietnam in 1965 according\nto American history.\nI think it is a reference to all genocides including\nthe holocaust. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I then thought \"shovel\", do you dig with a\nshovel?\n \nAnd then a picture came repeatedly into my mind of\nthe \"Adam Delving\" stained \nglass window at Canterbury (it survived the\nReformation because it was too \nhigh for the stones\"). I put \"Adam delving\" into a\nsearch engine, and up it \ncame. It shows Adam after the Fall digging with a\npointed ended shovel-like \nimplement (and there's a red ribbon like area in\nfront of him too)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very well spotted. I keep missing the Christian\nreferences.\nIf Adam was the first man then no-one before him used\ntools. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I think that (amongst all the other references)\nthis is to do with the \nsuggestion that the abos were prelapsarian humans:\nAdam only started delving \nafter and in consequence of the Fall and perhaps he\nalso couldn't as well as \ndidn't use tools before then. See also David in the\ndebate in the library \"Humanity \nimplies descent from what we may conveniently call\nAdam, that is, the \noriginal terrestrial stock\", and, at the end of \"A\nstory\" : \"Three men with their \nlimbs wrapped in leaves\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One thing I love about Gene Wolfe is that when you do\nspot a connection, you can then find he makes the same\npoint over and over again. If you can't find it in at\nleast three places I would dismiss it as coincidence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n(There was some discussion in the archives about the\nrelationship of 5HC to \nJames Blish's A Case of Conscience, which is also\nabout whether a sentient race \nare unfallen beings with souls)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think I have read it, but I do think GW has\nlittered the book with references to his favourite SF\nwriters. I would be surprised if any of the authors in\nthe first few Orbit anthologies were not referenced\nexplicitly or implicitly.\nI am a big fan of Thomas Disch, so it easy for me to\nspot the references to many of his stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thats all for now.\n \nJudith" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be honest, I am a little upset at the continuing\nabuse I have received from a few people on the Urth\nlist. I admit I was a little over-exuberant when I\nbegan posting after reading everything on T5HOC I\ncould find and although Borski and others, gave me a\nfew leads, I feel nobody has explained the book to my\nsatisfaction.\nI have been corresponding with Korean War veterans and\ntheir families and they have been extremely helpful.\n\nThank you again for your insights and I hope you find\nsomething of interest in my reply here.\n\nRegards\n\nJim\n\n\n\t\n\t\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f761737050126111632764e76@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-26T11:16:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: 5HC", "in_reply_to": "<20050126182518.73681.qmail@web25704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jim - \n\nWhile I've found some of your postings, as you say, overexuberant\nand sometimes way out in left field, I hope you haven't felt abuse\nfrom me. I certainly intend none.\n\nA few details." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gene also gives us Genetics and Genesis etc etc" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yes ... And number five is not only a Gene Wolfe, but \na gene wolf, a genetic predator. And there is a very definite\n\"Genesis\" aspect to 5HC, particularly in the matter of the \nFall. \n\n(I also think the suggestion that a race that doesn't use \ntools may be unfFallen - emphasis on \"may\" - is spot on.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the murder scene is written (in all three\nnovels) to allow any of the participants (named or\nimplied) to be valid suspects." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we may also expect a Cain-and-Abel aspect to\neach murder: that is, they are all to be perceived as\nmurders of close kin. Due perhaps to envy/jealousy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aaaargh! But you are also right and I should have\nspotted this before. Anne in Green Gables is obsessed\nwith why the roads there are all red... like her hair.\nA rougette is also a radish (reddish?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that \"radish\" comes from _radix_, root - which\nis also the root (or radical) of \"radical.\" Still, in the \n'60s, and even more in the era of the Korean War, \n\"radical\" would be tied to \"red,\" or rather \"Red.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Very well spotted. I keep missing the Christian\nreferences." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These seem to me (more or less importantly) present in \nall Wolfe's major work, even the ones on overtly pagan\nthemes like the Latro books, \"There Are Doors\" and \"The\nWizard Knight.\" Keeping at least one eye on that aspect\nseems to me key to understanding them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One thing I love about Gene Wolfe is that when you do\nspot a connection, you can then find he makes the same\npoint over and over again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep. It's almost as if he was begging for the use of \n\"deconstructive\" techniques - here, the discovry of the\n\"brisure,\" hinge, that so much of the work swings back\nand forth on.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"We're going to sit on Scorsese's head\"\n -- The Goodfeathers" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050126192939.30372.qmail@web50305.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-26T11:29:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Collusion", "in_reply_to": "<20050126182518.73681.qmail@web25704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This isn't a scholarly post; just a strange observation. I loaned my brother Book\nof the New Sun and Radiohead's Amnesiac at the same time, and afterward he said he\nnoticed so many similarities that he wanted to write the band and ask them if they'd\nbeen reading the book while they made the album. I don't think they did, but here's\nsome of the things that stand out:\n\nPyramid Song\n\n\"i jumped in the river and what did I see?\nblack-eyed angels swimming with me\"\n...\n\"all the figures i used to see\nall my lovers were there with me\nall my past and futures\"\n\nThis fits in well with the undines and the alzabo, obviously.\n\n\nYou and Whose Army?\n\n\"Come on, come on\nYou and whose army?\nYou and your cronies\nCome on, come on\nHoly Roman empire\nCome on if you think\nCome on if you think\nYou can take us on\"\n\nNot as tailored but certainly fits in with the Ascian theme.\n\n\nPull/Pulk Revolving Doors\n\n\"There are doors that open by themselves\nThere are sliding doors\nAnd there are secret doors\nThere are doors that lock\nAnd doors that don't\nThere are doors that let you in and out\nBut never open\"\n\nThis fits in both with the House Absolute's secret doors and metaphorically with\nSeverian moving through time.\n\nI'm not suggesting that Amnesiac is Radiohead's singalong to BotNS, or even that\nthey pulled anything from it. I just thought the similaries were interesting and\nthat someone else might enjoy them. As a side note, the album's tone fits oddly\nwell with the book's.\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050126194726.29177.qmail@web25702.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jim Raylor", "address": "rjraylor at yahoo.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-01-26T11:47:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: 5HC", "in_reply_to": "<1f761737050126111632764e76@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you Mark\n\nI had always regarded the 'Elephant and Whale Jokes' I\nheard as a child as classic examples of Absurdist and\nSurrealist humour.\nI had never associated them with the racist jokes,\nwhich I soon learned to hate.\nI can understand now why some people found that post\nof mine offensive, it was never my intention to impugn\nany race.\nAnd thank you for that insight.\nI believe Gene's experiences in Korea cured him of all\nracist tendencies that he may have acquired and gave\nhim a deeper understanding of humanity which extends\nto elephants, whales and crippled monkeys.\nThank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt.\nI should learn to look before I leap.\nRegards\n\nJim" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " --- Mark Millman \nwrote: \nDear Mr. Raylor,\n\nPlease forgive me if you've already\nheard this from other correspondents.\n\nAs you write from England, I'm going to\ngive you the benefit of the doubt and\nassume that you don't know the meaning\nof elephant jokes. They are generally\nacknowledged to be racist, directed\nagainst blacks. They're thought to\nhave developed out of white discomfort\nabout the potential change in blacks'\nsocial situation during the United\nStates' civil rights movements in the\nlate 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s.\n\nWhile I grant that some people who\nwrote in response to your posts may\nhave been reacting to your exuberance,\nmembers of this list don't generally\nattack other people for having wild\nideas. I am, however, quite convinced\nthat the notes calling you a troll\nwere prompted by the elephant-joke\npost. Had you thought to disclaim\nracism, you probably would not have\nhad the same reaction.\n\nAs I say above, I've given you the\nbenefit of the doubt on this matter be-\ncause I'm not sure how widely known the\nassociation between elephant jokes and\nanti-black racism may be outside the\nU.S. I'm sure it would go a long way\ntoward mending fences if you were to\npost a note indicating that you meant\nno offense.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman\n\n\nOn Wed, 26 Jan 2005, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To be honest, I am a little\nupset at the continuing\nabuse I have received from\na few people on the Urth\nlist. I admit I was a little\nover-exuberant when I began\nposting . . .\n\nRegards\n\nJim" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173705012611596e565dba@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-26T11:59:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Collusion", "in_reply_to": "<20050126192939.30372.qmail@web50305.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hunh.\n\nIt would not be the first time rock bands have based their work on \nSF classics. Aside from the umpty-million tributes. Genesis' song \n\"Watcher of the Skies,\" for example, is supposedly a tribute to \n_Childhood's End_ (by way of Keats). Bowie's album \"Diamond\nDogs\" is a take on _Nineteen Eighty-Four_, as is _Listen Now_,\nby 801 (a side project of Roxy Music's Phil Manzanera). Rush's\nalbum _2112_ is loosely based on Ayn Rand's _Anthem_. Etc.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"We're going to sit on Scorsese's head\"\n -- The Goodfeathers" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050126202046.94591.qmail@web50306.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-26T12:20:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Collusion", "in_reply_to": "<1f76173705012611596e565dba@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. I'd heard that you can play Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon with\n2001: A Space Odyssey (the film) simultaneously, and that the band timed the music\nthat way. Let me reiterate that I am not making that claim here about Radiohead and\nthose parallels to BotNS.\n\nI also wanted to say that I should have dictionaried 'collusion' before I used it as\nmy subject. I didn't intend it in the sense of 'connivance' but merely in the sense\nof 'hidden colloboration', which it might not even have.\n\nNate" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nHunh.\n\nIt would not be the first time rock bands have based their work on \nSF classics. Aside from the umpty-million tributes. Genesis' song \n\"Watcher of the Skies,\" for example, is supposedly a tribute to \n_Childhood's End_ (by way of Keats). Bowie's album \"Diamond\nDogs\" is a take on _Nineteen Eighty-Four_, as is _Listen Now_,\nby 801 (a side project of Roxy Music's Phil Manzanera). Rush's\nalbum _2112_ is loosely based on Ayn Rand's _Anthem_. Etc.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n-- \n\"We're going to sit on Scorsese's head\"\n -- The Goodfeathers\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.0.14.0.20050126213016.0389f6f8@pop.gmx.net>", "from": { "name": "Hmpf MacSlow", "address": "hmpf1998 at gmx.net" }, "date": "2005-01-26T12:34:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Collusion", "in_reply_to": "<20050126192939.30372.qmail@web50305.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not suggesting that Amnesiac is Radiohead's singalong to BotNS, or \neven that\nthey pulled anything from it. I just thought the similaries were \ninteresting and\nthat someone else might enjoy them. As a side note, the album's tone fits \noddly\nwell with the book's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The really weird thing is that I'm listening to that album *right* now. And \nyes, I started listening *before* I read this post. Been listening to it \nall afternoon. I was listening to Pulk/Pull Revolving Doors when I began \nreading, and it just switched to You And Whose Army?\n\n*feels paranoid*\n\nHmpf" } ] }, { "message_id": "<41F80C92.8020202@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "maru", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-26T13:33:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Collusion", "in_reply_to": "<20050126202046.94591.qmail@web50306.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\nSo Dark side o' the moon synches with 2001 *and* The Wizard of Oz?\n\n~Maru\nThose bands! So talented!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nathan Spears wrote:\nInteresting. I'd heard that you can play Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon with\n2001: A Space Odyssey (the film) simultaneously, and that the band timed the music\nthat way. Let me reiterate that I am not making that claim here about Radiohead and\nthose parallels to BotNS.\n\nI also wanted to say that I should have dictionaried 'collusion' before I used it as\nmy subject. I didn't intend it in the sense of 'connivance' but merely in the sense\nof 'hidden colloboration', which it might not even have.\n\nNate\n\n--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hunh.\n\nIt would not be the first time rock bands have based their work on \nSF classics. Aside from the umpty-million tributes. Genesis' song \n\"Watcher of the Skies,\" for example, is supposedly a tribute to \n_Childhood's End_ (by way of Keats). Bowie's album \"Diamond\nDogs\" is a take on _Nineteen Eighty-Four_, as is _Listen Now_,\nby 801 (a side project of Roxy Music's Phil Manzanera). Rush's\nalbum _2112_ is loosely based on Ayn Rand's _Anthem_. Etc.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n-- \n\"We're going to sit on Scorsese's head\"\n -- The Goodfeathers\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050126215324.89261.qmail@web50305.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-01-26T13:53:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Collusion", "in_reply_to": "<41F80C92.8020202@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right; I was confusing the two stories in my head. Wikipedia says:\n\nIt has been claimed that the psychedelic \"stargate sequence\" that concludes the\nfilm, entitled \"Jupiter and Beyond the Infinite\", matches perfectly with the Pink\nFloyd song, \"Echoes\", just as Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon is believed to\nsychronise well with the movie The Wizard of Oz. [1]\n(http://www.synchronicityarkive.com/display.php?view=2) \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- maru wrote:\n...\nSo Dark side o' the moon synches with 2001 *and* The Wizard of Oz?\n\n~Maru\nThose bands! So talented!\n\nNathan Spears wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting. I'd heard that you can play Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon with\n2001: A Space Odyssey (the film) simultaneously, and that the band timed the\nmusic\nthat way. Let me reiterate that I am not making that claim here about Radiohead\nand\nthose parallels to BotNS.\n\nI also wanted to say that I should have dictionaried 'collusion' before I used it\nas\nmy subject. I didn't intend it in the sense of 'connivance' but merely in the\nsense\nof 'hidden colloboration', which it might not even have.\n\nNate\n\n--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hunh.\n\nIt would not be the first time rock bands have based their work on \nSF classics. Aside from the umpty-million tributes. Genesis' song \n\"Watcher of the Skies,\" for example, is supposedly a tribute to \n_Childhood's End_ (by way of Keats). Bowie's album \"Diamond\nDogs\" is a take on _Nineteen Eighty-Four_, as is _Listen Now_,\nby 801 (a side project of Roxy Music's Phil Manzanera). Rush's\nalbum _2112_ is loosely based on Ayn Rand's _Anthem_. Etc.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n-- \n\"We're going to sit on Scorsese's head\"\n -- The Goodfeathers\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1d9.3540b157.2f2b8cc4@aol.com>", "from": { "name": "Broceliande27533 at aol.com", "address": "broceliande27533 at aol.com" }, "date": "2005-01-28T04:41:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC", "in_reply_to": "<20050126194726.29177.qmail@web25702.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Marquis of Carabas \n \nSorry: misprint: should be \"otherwise based on German and Norse myth\". Puss \nin Boots is French: Perrault I think. Wagner imports the idea into Rheingold, \n(Alberich has stolen the Rheingold and by pronouncing the curse on love has \ncreated the ring of power which enables him to rule the world. He has also had \nthe Tarnhelm forged, and it allows him to transform himself into anything he \nwants. Wotan (later called Valfather/the Wanderer) and Loge (Loki) are trying to \nsteal the Rheingold in order to ransom Freia, aka Holda, (and her golden \napples) who has been pledged to the giants to pay for the building of Walhall \n(Valhalla). Alberich tries to frighten them away by transforming himself into a \ndragon, but Loge tricks him by betting him that he can't transform himself into \nsomething small and weak. He turns himself into a toad, and they pounce, and \nthen steal the gold in turn. Its pivotal to the plot.) The Ring is otherwise \nbased entirely on German and Norse myth. From what was written about The Wizard \nKnight, I gather that that is also based on Norse myth, but has a Marquis of \nCarabas reference. I wondered whether that was a coincidence. I haven't read \nTWK yet, as I said.\n \n5HC\nI am aware of the arguments for and against my propositions in the archives. \nI am not convinced that there has been a comprehensive analysis in which the \nevidence and arguments on either side have been set out and evaluated. Maybe \nthere is not a clear answer to question i. But for my own satisfaction, I want \nto take a structured and comprehensive approach. \n \nSo far as the second question is concerned, I have read the archives on this \ntoo. I am aware of the handwriting change, and the point at which it occurs. I \nknow about the Wolfe interview. But are we certain that this was intended to \nbe the whole story? because at the moment I think that there is some material \nto support the proposition that Marsch replaces Victor, or that there is some \nsynthesis. My present view is that it GW intended it to be entirely ambiguous, \njust as is the question of who replaced who on St Anne. But again I want to \ndo a proper analysis. \n \nWhether I bother anyone with my conclusions is another matter!\n \nI am disappointed that no-one is so far interested in a 5HC opera. Perhaps an \noratorio would be better. Then no-one would have to wrestle with Mr Million's \ncostume.\n \nJudith P\n \n \n \n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f761737050128131721bdcde8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-28T13:17:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC", "in_reply_to": "<1d9.3540b157.2f2b8cc4@aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Judith -\n\nI honestly don't think _5HC_ is very, well, musical. For one thing,\nopera and oratorio tend to operate in a very linear sort of time\n- a necessity, given the nature of music - and _5HC_ is anything\nbut. One could possibly write a libretto based on the story -\nassuming one could reach some conclusions on just what the\nstory _was_ - but it wouldn't be _5HC_ in ways far more fundamental\nthan the way Peter Jackson's _tLotR_ isn't Tolkien's..\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"We're going to sit on Scorsese's head\"\n -- The Goodfeathers" } ] }, { "message_id": "<41FD6322.2010009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "maru", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-01-30T14:43:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC", "in_reply_to": "<1d9.3540b157.2f2b8cc4@aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To continue the fugue identification, perhaps it should be an \navant-garde production, with the three stories happening simultaneously, and\ninstead of the rhyming you seem focussed on, it should be done as \nalliterative verse. \n\n~Maru\nPuss in boots is my favorite fairy tale." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Broceliande27533 at aol.com wrote:\n....\n \nI am disappointed that no-one is so far interested in a 5HC opera. \nPerhaps an oratorio would be better. Then no-one would have to wrestle \nwith Mr Million's costume.\n \nJudith P\n \n " } ] } ] }